admin
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Post by admin on Mar 8, 2019 3:20:17 GMT
Some behind the scenes SBG sword store stuff here regarding what has become the bane of my existence.. Saya..
Oh, how I hate wooden saya..
You can check the fit 100 times at the warehouse and yet how it actually arrives to the customer is a crap shoot. Sometimes the weather causes the wood to expand and they arrive too loose, other times it contracts and they can't be drawn.. And of course, most people think that they are like this when they leave a warehouse.. But its rarely the case..
I first encountered this issue years ago when we shipped a sword from Canada to the USA and the customer was furious that the saya was too loose. $160 shipping down the drain and when it comes back to Canada, guess what? It fits perfectly again!
These days the amount of time dedicated to saya related customer service issues is off the chart and we lose so much money trying to rectify it that it is really making it hard to keep our head above water.
Here is a direct example of 'saya trouble' - we had a customer whose sword arrived with shipping damage to the saya. Instead of making the customer wait, we sent out a new saya promptly - but of course, it did not fit. As each blade is slightly different and each saya slightly different, its a crapshoot if sending a new one will work. So after that failed, we suggested to pack it all up and send the sword back with the extra saya and it will be refitted at the warehouse..
Unfortunately, now this customer is furious at us and demands we ship a new set out to him now and he will ship the damaged ones back at his leisure.. All because of shipping damage and a replacement that did not fit..
As such, all saya should be made from ABS plastic with the same tolerances and the SWORDS should be made to fit them. Problem solved..
The question is though, would you buy a plastic saya? Most people want wood - and so it seems that unless we can control the weather or use some kind of high tech temperature controlled, hermetically sealed bullet proof shipping boxes - the saya saga will continue to plague sellers and buyers of Japanese styled swords until the end of time..
Man I hate wooden saya..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 3:35:03 GMT
Using proper and seasoned wood might aleve the problems as well.
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Post by zabazagobo on Mar 8, 2019 4:36:41 GMT
I would absolutely consider a polymer/modern materials saya and other parts. It would keep the price down while simultaneously offering tougher, more weather resistant products. I think making a tsuka core out of g10 or Micarta for example would make it far stronger and far more weather resistant then any wood. Make the pins out of micarta too and you have an absolute tank. Exactly my thoughts. A good polymer will do the trick perfectly, much better than wood. No splits, cracks, creaks...so many problems solved by upgrading the material.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 8, 2019 4:41:03 GMT
My Hanwei Tac Kat has a plastic (whatever) saya and it works perfectly. For an "EDC" kat I would prefer plastic, for a folded DH heritage jewel not.
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Post by zabazagobo on Mar 8, 2019 4:42:13 GMT
I feel ya Paul. Wooden tsuka and saya have given me so many problems I legitimately fantasize at least once a week about upgrading the wooden materials to a resilient polymer.
So long as the edge retention is not compromised and the fit quality exceeds that of wood, heck yeah I would buy plastic parts. Given they're of high quality and hold up to use, abuse and anything in between of course. Not having to worry about thermal swelling/shrinking is one thing, and not having to worry about cracks and splits would be amazing.
Possibly cheaper than upgrading to a higher quality wood, although Edelweiss' idea is a good one as well. I have a couple saya that really are/were more durable than others with a harder wood, much better than the typical light woods seen everywhere. So if not switching to plastic, using a different wood could help alleviate the problem.
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Post by ctimmerwilke on Mar 8, 2019 5:12:24 GMT
maybe something more along the lines of a plastic dip on saya so they contain the wood core for a purist but are more durable and keep colors better? It gets cold where I live but I’ve never had a problem with a saya cracking or anything but I say that now and who knows next ones I get will be cracked. Something like a new type of laquer or plasti-dip would probably hold up better for the market when you think about “plastic saya” it doesn’t quite say quality when read on paper.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 8, 2019 6:13:49 GMT
Make a TH in a polymer saya, and I am sold.
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Post by leviathansteak on Mar 8, 2019 8:28:18 GMT
Honestly its not a bad idea. Plastic is probably more durable as well and might be desirable to the iaido folks.
However im pretty sure some people will still want the option of traditional materials for their saya
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Mar 8, 2019 12:41:28 GMT
I like the idea, heck, plastic for all of them. Maybe a 2 piece with screws holding it together, wood core, and the chape etc hiding the screws. R&D would be a pain though.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 8, 2019 13:07:31 GMT
That would solve many a problem. I’ve experienced the same with wood changing sizes. The finish that comes on most sayas have a polymer appearance and feel. I think such would go over well. As for me I’d go the old route, I’ve learned how to live with such expansion/contraction issues and in most cases not a plastic fan, being born in an age before plastic. The parting mould seam would be an eye sore to me and if not done right I would feel it, another turnoff. I do have a couple of questions, what effect is plastic going to have on the cutting edge? Possible scratches? Personally I prefer the traditional saya.
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Post by csills2313 on Mar 8, 2019 15:05:01 GMT
Shrinkage also applies to the Tsuka as well. This can cause the Ito to loosen up and fittings to loosen. I have had this occur from time to time.
I like wooden saya ok but I often wonder if the type of wood being used causes this or not. I would also think that if the wood is cured properly in a kiln there might be less problems with shrinkage etc.
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Post by Silent on Mar 8, 2019 21:20:21 GMT
Using proper and seasoned wood might aleve the problems as well. Most saya and tsukas on production swords are stading in wharehouses for years, meaning they are dry. Problem is with humidity changes, wood absorbs them and acts accordingly,in this case expanding. Staying on topic plastic is a cancer on this planet we should avoid to waste it. I wont argue about the durability and functionality of it. I would rather take a small ratle on a tradicional saya , then a plastic saya. BTW, just arrived my Dragon King Kohaku katana I bought and has a minor saya rattle, where my Pratical Elite has none. I dont plan on complaining.I dont think its that much of an issue... Complaining about this issues on production level swords,such complaints shouldnt even be accepted. If you want fit to perfection think about 2000+ swords. Best Regards
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 8, 2019 21:35:53 GMT
Myself, I'm of the camp where plastic goes on cheap, crappy "swords" that nobody wants. "Real swords" use "real materials" like wood, horn, and metal.
Honestly, the easiest solution to this is a disclaimer. Weather, climate, season, whatever, affects wood. Your sword fit great when it left. If it's not fitting great right now, well, that sucks, but here's the thing: it happens. Easy fix. Let it sit for a few days to see if the wood balances out. If it's still tight, grab a nail file and go slow until it's not anymore. If it's still too loose, get some paper or cardboard or a thin bit of wood (balsa or whatever your local craft store sells) and cut about an inch off and glue it to one side of your saya. Too tight now? File it.
Plastic is terrible. Some plastic even still warps in temperature shifts, humidity, what have you. It just adds cheapness to the product, and I'm sure it's terrible for the steel.
Heck, the first "real sword" I ever bought had a crack in the koiguchi. I let it go for a few years, because the fit was still fine. Eventually it progressed to the point where I had to glue it, and it's been fine since.
Sometimes you need to adjust your swords when you get them. Sometimes you luck out and everything's perfect, but then sometimes you'll still have to fix something eventually.
Now, if the blade is bent, chipped, cracked, or otherwise damaged on arrival...that's an actual problem.
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christain
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Post by christain on Mar 8, 2019 21:48:09 GMT
I've had problems with wooden scabbards before, but no 'saya', since I don't own any Japanese swords. I've taken a couple of my swords with loose scabbards and walked around at Ren-fest all day in East Texas humidity and then could barely get the sword out once I got home. (Not to mention the mass amounts of oiling they received afterward.)
I have a friend who owns a cheapo 'Ninja' sword with an aluminum(?) saya. He was practicing his 'Ninja moves' one day and turned the saya into a V-shape. He begged me to make him a new one, so.....I used fiberglass. I won't go through the whole process here...but it turned out rather well. He still has it to this day, and the sword shows no rust or scratches. (Other than the ones he's put on it himself.) The sword is high carbon, not stainless. (He's not THAT BIG of a mall ninja! )
Having said that, aside from leaving Japanese tradition, I see nothing wrong with going for an artificial material for a scabbard or saya. Heck, if it works...DO IT! If the ancient Japanese had plastic or fiberglass back then...who knows?
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Post by RaylonTheDemented on Mar 8, 2019 22:38:50 GMT
Personally I have no issue with a bit of saya rattle, part of the price to pay for a production sword. As long as the koiguchi is well made I am happy to go and shim/file away. Admittedly, I never had a warped saya before, so... I kinda agree with randomnobody about the saya disclaimer. I am assuming it could even happen with very expensive katana/nihonto. Maybe add the disclaimer and an obvious permanent link to a youtube video on how to shim/file a saya in the 'Specification' tab in the store.
Personally, I kinda like the wooden saya, feels more 'traditional' to me. If plastic saya becomes a thing, possibly add it as an option to go with the sword.
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Post by shepherd214 on Mar 9, 2019 2:03:08 GMT
Myself, I'm of the camp where plastic goes on cheap, crappy "swords" that nobody wants. "Real swords" use "real materials" like wood, horn, and metal. Honestly, the easiest solution to this is a disclaimer. Weather, climate, season, whatever, affects wood. Your sword fit great when it left. If it's not fitting great right now, well, that sucks, but here's the thing: it happens. Easy fix. Let it sit for a few days to see if the wood balances out. If it's still tight, grab a nail file and go slow until it's not anymore. If it's still too loose, get some paper or cardboard or a thin bit of wood (balsa or whatever your local craft store sells) and cut about an inch off and glue it to one side of your saya. Too tight now? File it. Plastic is terrible. Some plastic even still warps in temperature shifts, humidity, what have you. It just adds cheapness to the product, and I'm sure it's terrible for the steel. Heck, the first "real sword" I ever bought had a crack in the koiguchi. I let it go for a few years, because the fit was still fine. Eventually it progressed to the point where I had to glue it, and it's been fine since. Sometimes you need to adjust your swords when you get them. Sometimes you luck out and everything's perfect, but then sometimes you'll still have to fix something eventually. Now, if the blade is bent, chipped, cracked, or otherwise damaged on arrival...that's an actual problem. This makes very little sense to me honestly.
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Post by Matt KOA on Mar 9, 2019 2:52:51 GMT
Yep. We deal with the same issues over at Kult of Athena, especially during the temperature extremes of winter and summer. You can keep saya and all the other wood components at a decent temp in a warehouse, but once its out for shipping in boxes and out in the elements all kinds of crazy can happen. We check to see if they fit well before shipping out, but sometimes a customer in a very cold, hot or humid climate will get it and be unable to unsheath it, or it fits too loosely. I don't blame them for being upset but we do get our share of heat for it.
I would make a guess that the manufacturers get negative feedback for overly loose saya and scabbards as overly loose ones feel "shifty" and dangerous if they slide out at the slightest tilt. Thus to compensate they usually make them fit nice and tight at their workshop and err towards tightness. By the time they get to us after an intercontinental journey its not unusual for the scabbards to be locked shut and in an excessively tight state which usually requires some careful teamwork in shop to unsheath them again.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 5:23:51 GMT
People need to have realistic expectations. A good saya with good materials costs more than a lot of folks are willing to spend on a complete sword. And it's fine, but you have to understand there's trade-offs and when you get it out of the cardboard box you might have to work the action a few hundred times or you might have to shim.
It would probably benefit vendors to be honest and transparent about this and get more specific language in disclaimers or return policies. Maybe even an "I understand that..." when pulling the trigger on an order.
"You want a real sword, right? Here's what that means..."
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Post by MOK on Mar 9, 2019 7:18:23 GMT
Wood's funny. I like it. I have a Kris Cutlery langseax, ordered directly from them. When it came to me, here in cold, dry-ish Finland, the shirasaya-style scabbard was warped, visibly curved in the plane of the blade like it was made for a yataghan, badly enough that I had to use a mallet to get the blade out. Now, years later, I've fitted the seax with a new handle but still haven't gotten around to making a proper sheath because every times I pick it up I go "Ehhh... it's not as bad as I remember" and put it back down, deciding there are worse things I need to correct. And it's gotten to a point where it actually fits just about perfect - the blade goes in and comes out smoothly, almost clicks into place when fully seated and stays in unless deliberately pulled out, there's no looseness or rattle but also no undue stickiness or drag. It's just all around great. I dunno what exactly did it, aside from general acclimatization, but it's completely changed over time, 100% spontaneously, to the point that I'm considering just dressing it up instead of making a new sheath.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 9, 2019 13:10:30 GMT
"Plastic" has a connotation of being "cheap". But not all "plastic" is actual plastic- most of it is some form of polymer compound or composite. There are a huge number of plastic like materials that are super tough and long lasting, as well as being very affordable. My first thought is the polymer that Moraniv uses. Go ahead and just try to break that stuff- odds are you won't be able to without using a vice and hammer- it certainly has proven itself to be tough and long lasting in actual use. The gun community has long since adopted composite stocks and foregrips over wood decades ago because of it's low cost and superior resistance to water, heat, and cold.
In my mind it's not a matter of polymer being better than wood, it's a matter of marketing it to the public. Perhaps some destruction videos with poly vs. wood and some big-name endorsements of the product would help wash away the "cheap and flimsy" moniker.
But will a katana buyer go for something non-traditional on a sword that is stepped in tradition? I would- because I care more about the blade than the saya.
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