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Post by elbrittania39 on Mar 6, 2019 21:31:43 GMT
If there are two sword wielding opponents, one of whom is wearing a substantial amount of armor, and another who is wearing no armor at all, what is the best approach or tactics for the unarmored fighter to use?
Is it to grapple? Murder stroke with the hilt? Tire them out? Stab in gaps? Try to cut some straps?
I'm interested to hear what you think worked best. I understand this answer will vary depending on the type of armor and sword that you're thinking about, so please be specific when you respond.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Mar 6, 2019 21:38:19 GMT
IMO, 2 equally trained and fit opponents. The unarmored one needs to use the environment and tire the armored one, and throw BIG rocks etc. Constantly playing keep away. Assuming he keeps range, and tires the armored one, it's relatively easy to win, and hopefully he's less tired from all these shenanigans.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Mar 6, 2019 22:17:59 GMT
You should run about three laps around the walls of Troy, with the armored guy in pursuit. It didn't do Hector much good, but I stand by this as a sound strategy.
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Post by leviathansteak on Mar 7, 2019 0:44:25 GMT
I don't think running around to tire the armoured guy is a good idea. He might mot tire easily if he is fit and you might end up wearing yourself out instead. I remember a recent video where a guy ran a marathon in plate armour to show the capabilities of medieval armour.
Also, the armoured guy isnt stupid and won't necessarily chase you around but might rather wait for you to get tired instead or for you to come to him (Im assuming a duel like scenario where you can't just run away)
So my strategy would be to close in and grapple, under cover of a strike or parry. Depending on the weapon, you might be able to play long range as well e.g. pollax or spear
I just realised the op says sword wielding. It'll have to be grappling then..
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 7, 2019 1:24:37 GMT
Tire the armoured one out. I don’t know what type of armour you were considering but that is of little importance, a battle grade gambeson or plate they are both hot, the plate is also heavier. Play him for all he is worth and the heat and fatigue will catch up with him. With no armour you will also be faster, just keep out of his range, make him work.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 1:42:31 GMT
Hard, full-body-weight-dropping-into-it crushing cut to the head. Cave the thing in and drop him.
Another option, close in and off-balance him, and take him to the ground.
Lots of possibilities depending on situational conditions.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Mar 7, 2019 1:46:32 GMT
Tire the armoured one out. I don’t know what type of armour you were considering but that is of little importance, a battle grade gambeson or plate they are both hot, the plate is also heavier. Play him for all he is worth and the heat and fatigue will catch up with him. With no armour you will also be faster, just keep out of his range, make him work. Pretty much what I was going to say; armor's heavy and no matter how well distributed, you'll tire faster wearing it than not wearing it, but it's the heat that'd probably get you first. The armor grade gambesons I've seen seem pretty thick and like they wouldn't breathe at all, so you'd heat up pretty quickly in them, more so once you put mail and plate over top of it. Add in an arming cap and a full face helmet and I doubt even the most physically fit combatant could fight continuously for more than a few minutes without risking heat stroke.
On a more relevant note: for the purpose of the discussion, is a shield considered to be armor? If not, pair a Type XV with a decent shield to allow you to (relatively) safely close in, bind his weapon, and aim for the groin, as that's usually the single largest gap in any set of plate; get a few stabs in and once he's wounded, retreat and let him bleed to death.
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Post by leviathansteak on Mar 7, 2019 2:12:52 GMT
Regarding tiring the armoured guy out: Here's the thing, if you were the one wearing the armour, you too know this weakness and you'd be taking care not to unwisely exert yourself chasing the guy around.
Armour is built for fighting in, and someone trained and experienced in its use will stay in a fight more than long enough to fight you.
Playing at range for an extended amount of time is not without its issues. Fail one dodge or counter and you're toast.
Imo you're far better off grappling him early in the fight where his decreased flexibility/mobility will be disadvantageous for him
And even if you do want to use the tiring out strategy, lets say you do succeed and he's really tired, you still have to finish the guy. And as it turns out, grappling will still likely be the way to do it unless he's got huge gaps in the armour that you can target at a distance away. The op says substantially armoured so that might not be an option.
Therefore to sum up, you're most likely going to have to grapple anyway. So might as well do it while you're fresh and not risk failing a defense
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 7, 2019 2:52:36 GMT
I am not disputing grappling, but let that come later. I find heating with mail a lessened issue as all of those voids in the rings allow the heat to pass. Nevertheless a hauberk is heavy and a light gambeson traps heat. I find that with my heavy gambeson, plus helmet and the rest of course, here in the tropics will suck all my energy in short order. FWIW 25% of the bodies heat lost is through the head. I notice a difference just with an arming cap and helmet. I leave my head bare as long as I can. I can last longer in my light gambeson w/hauberk longer and have about the same protection from lacerations, not blunt trauma, but in time even that with its heat build up and additional weight I feel it, just not as quickly. So I still maintain my original argument of wearing the man down, and then do your thing. And grappling is certainly a valid thing. But I’d think twice before just rushing in on someone armoured expecting to take him out. I would definitely put the odds in my favour first. There is no way to know beforehand who has the best endurance, but it’s a safe bet that the man with the extra weight and heat issues doesn’t.
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Post by RaylonTheDemented on Mar 7, 2019 12:30:58 GMT
I have no experience fighting in armor, but for the sake of argument, we are assuming all skills being equal, wouldn't the armor wearer realize what the unarmored swordman's intention is and happily trade a blow if he is rushing and grappling? After all the whole point of armor is to be able to take damage. Not so for his opponent.
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Post by zabazagobo on Mar 7, 2019 23:18:22 GMT
Grappling an opponent in heavy armor sounds...tiring to say the least. You'd have to contend with the weight and force the armor adds, which wouldn't be very fun to put up with.
Running around isn't a great idea either. This actually gave me a funny mental picture of a rather stoic knight standing in place humming to himself while the lightly armored opponent is running around him in a circle (picture the boy who runs around screaming from Robin Hood: Men in Tights), eventually stopping to catch his breath only to at that exact moment be clubbed over the head.
My approach would be to use the armor against him. The armor weighs a bit which results in more recovery time between strikes. So I'd bait the opponent and strike in the appropriate interval. Depending on the armor in question (I'm picturing heavy duty plate), a thrust should be easy to sneak in at the right time. Maybe even a cut depending on the type of armor and the gaps visible, disabling the wrist/forearm would be handy. Depending on the lightly armored fighter's equipment, having an off hand weapon or a shield would make this process so much easier than simply having one sword. Cutting the straps off is an interesting prospect too, not sure how easy that would be to pull off in comparison to a well aimed thrust.
Vincent Dolan's bleed out strategy is also quite sensible. But the groin? Ouch.
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Post by csills2313 on Mar 7, 2019 23:48:37 GMT
Find the lost ark of the covenant and circle your armored opponent until he comes crashing down!!🤣
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 8, 2019 1:58:34 GMT
I wasn’t suggesting to literally run in circles around the armoured guy, but to make him move burning energy and allowing the heat to build up under that armour. It should be easy enough to stay out of his reach and close momentary causing him to react. If you have to exert excessive energy doing this you are defeating your purpose. If things aren’t going your way I dare say that without all of that extra weight he has you can out distance him and be around to fight another day.
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Post by zabazagobo on Mar 8, 2019 2:18:04 GMT
I wasn’t suggesting to literally run in circles around the armoured guy, but to make him move burning energy and allowing the heat to build up under that armour. It should be easy enough to stay out of his reach and close momentary causing him to react. If you have to exert excessive energy doing this you are defeating your purpose. If things aren’t going your way I dare say that without all of that extra weight he has you can out distance him and be around to fight another day. We're on the same page. Got to use the opponent's armor to your advantage, and the more sluggish he gets the easier it is to stick him with the pointy end.
Also the perspective of living to fight another day is smart. No reason you can't outmaneuver the opponent and utilize stealth. After all, armor is kind of cheating in gentlemanly affairs, so stealth is more than fair.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 8, 2019 2:46:39 GMT
You shouldn't close and grapple. If he's used to armored fighting, he will most likely be very well trained in grappling.
I will, in the near future draw how I would deal with an armored opponent in a fight. Of course, My train of thought immediately turns to military swordsmanship.
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Post by leviathansteak on Mar 8, 2019 3:42:39 GMT
You shouldn't close and grapple. If he's used to armored fighting, he will most likely be very well trained in grappling. I will, in the near future draw how I would deal with an armored opponent in a fight. Of course, My train of thought immediately turns to military swordsmanship. unless perhaps you're good at grappling as well? But of course if one isnt proficient at grappling then don't take the risk
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Post by leviathansteak on Mar 8, 2019 3:45:14 GMT
I have no experience fighting in armor, but for the sake of argument, we are assuming all skills being equal, wouldn't the armor wearer realize what the unarmored swordman's intention is and happily trade a blow if he is rushing and grappling? After all the whole point of armor is to be able to take damage. Not so for his opponent. that's a fair point. You'll have to do your utmost to stall his weapon with your own or cover his line of attack as you close in. Id like to point out that rushing in should also be done with good judgement and timing as with any technique. But in general, if someone really wants to get a 'double hit', its very hard to avoid.
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Scott
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Post by Scott on Mar 8, 2019 3:45:42 GMT
Unscrew your pommel and end him rightly.
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Post by wlewisiii on Mar 8, 2019 3:53:18 GMT
I know you say two sword wielders, but my first impulse was "BILL HOOK" because that's what they were for - peasant levies needing to kill mounted & heavily armored knights. A pole arm gives you reach and leverage sufficent to overcome the advantage of the armor. Pin with the pole ax and end with a semprinis dagger. Wash the blood off the armor and sell it with the rest of the loot
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 8, 2019 4:27:05 GMT
You shouldn't close and grapple. If he's used to armored fighting, he will most likely be very well trained in grappling. I will, in the near future draw how I would deal with an armored opponent in a fight. Of course, My train of thought immediately turns to military swordsmanship. unless perhaps you're good at grappling as well? But of course if one isnt proficient at grappling then don't take the risk imgur.com/eOr5ksd
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