Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2019 16:18:52 GMT
Greetings. I have begun work on customizing a sword to resemble Hadhafang, or Arwen's sword from The Lord of the Rings. The sword is also carried by Elrond, Arwen's father, and was conceived by the film makers as an heirloom of their family. Originally belonging to Idril, princess of Gondolin, Hadhafang is a contemporary of Glamdring, Orcrist, and Sting. This is not canonical, but it is a nice touch and I always loved the design of the sword and have wanted to own a replica for many years.
I am creating this thread to update my progress and fully intend to upload all sorts of photos. For now, I would like to share how this all began.
Recently, I contacted Peter Lyon, the legendary sword smith contracted to make the hero weapons for the Rings films. I asked him some general questions about the original prop because, apart from the United Cutlery replica, there are no replicas of this sword that are authentic enough to interest me, least of all a "battle ready" (for lack of a better term) version. His reply was far more detailed than I could have imagined. In fact, it was nearly comprehensive.
Here is some history about the making of this fascinating sword based on my own research and Mr. Lyon's generous account:
1. Peter Lyon did not design the sword. Weta Workshop employed three primary conceptual artists: Daniel Falconer, Benjamin Wooten, and Warren Mahy. Mahy was responsible for the majority of the Elven designs, so I assume he is responsible for Hadhafang, though I cannot confirm this. Mahy et al were given one memo from Peter Jackson regarding the design of all things Elven: Japanese Samurai culture and Arte Nouveau. Superficially, Hadhafang does resemble a Japanese katana, but a trained eye will spot the many ways why it bears little resemblance to one. As far as the influence of Arte Nouveau, the curved lines and floral motifs are evident in the final design.
2. Mr. Lyon claims that other historical Eastern swords played a significant influence on the overall design of the sword. These swords include the tulwar, the shamshir, the Cossack shashka, but most especially the Indo-Persian yataghan, this is because Hadhafang has both a curve AND a recurve. The recurve in the handle, according to Mr. Lyon, was caused by a "fortuitous accident" during the heat treatment. He elected to keep it because, well, it looks cool.
3. Hadhafang was a rather annoying sword to create. Mr. Lyon cut the basic shape of the sword out from spring steel sheet stock, but could not achieve the curvature in the tip to his satisfaction. Therefore, he finished the sword with a hammer and anvil until he was satisfied. The blade has two barbs, for lack of a better word, and the bevels extend from the edge to the barbs themselves in a circular motion. Grinding these bevels, therefore, was a huge pain in the ass. I included the photo in this post to visually detail what I am talking about.
3. The blade DOES have a distal taper. Mr. Lyon explained that the sword was 4.5mm thick at the base and tapered to about 2mm or less at the tip. He wanted the last third to be rather thin, but given the significant profile taper, he needed more mass at the tip to strengthen it. It's amazing that even though the hero sword was never going to be used to chop people to bits, he still conceived of the sword in that way and gave so much attention to the functional details. Furthermore, grinding the distal taper into the blade without losing all the various bevels, edges, curves, and small details was a massive undertaking, and this was for a sword that was created as an afterthought!
4. The blade is etched with floral motifs and runes. The original runic script had a line that was omitted from the finished sword because there was not enough room. Mr. Lyon claims that if they had more time, Weta would have used real copper or brass inlay to hammer into the etchings. Similarly, they would have used real inlay in the handle as they did for Sting. Mr. Lyon carved all the channels into the handle for Sting. Given the handle material was cocobolo it was a real feat in and of itself as cocobolo wood is INCREDIBLY dense. He set real silver inlay into the channels under a microscope with tweezers! I can understand why he did not have the time to do this with Hadhafang, but I wonder if anyone would have the ambition to do it after the work on Sting.
5. The final weight of the sword was about 2.5 pounds and it had a decent balance, about seven inches from the handle. This is consistent with many historical sabers, Eastern and Western alike. This is impressive considering Hadhafang does not have a heavy pommel to balance the weight, only a thin brass cap. This will be a major point of contention for me when I am close to completing my sword build, because I DO want the sword to be well balanced.
My next post will provide a bevy of pictures and will show all the work I have done so far. Stay tuned...
|
|
|
Post by csills2313 on Feb 28, 2019 21:22:23 GMT
Never mind the sword. I want Arwen. She is gorgeous!!🥰
|
|
|
Post by Sir Thorfinn on Feb 28, 2019 21:25:05 GMT
*grabs popcorn*
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2019 21:36:04 GMT
Never mind the sword. I want Arwen. She is gorgeous!!🥰 Don't we all?!
|
|
|
Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 1, 2019 0:02:24 GMT
How long/wide is the blade? 2.5 pounds is about what a 36" by 1 1/8" bladed cavalry sword weighs with a big brass hilt on it.
I bet you could drop a lot of weight and have amazing dynamics with aggressive fullering and distal taper.
I love the design Hadhafang. I've always thought it would be a sweet and light melee sabre.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2019 3:12:51 GMT
How long/wide is the blade? 2.5 pounds is about what a 36" by 1 1/8" bladed cavalry sword weighs with a big brass hilt on it. I bet you could drop a lot of weight and have amazing dynamics with aggressive fullering and distal taper. I love the design Hadhafang. I've always thought it would be a sweet and light melee sabre. Lyon's finished product was about 2.5 pounds with a 30 inch blade. I am going to make an extensive post tomorrow with pictures of my blade, but as a preview of coming events, my bare blade, after many annoying hours of grinding a distal taper, is 2 pounds. So I am in the same ballpark. The blade is widest at 1.5 inches.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2019 15:16:01 GMT
In this post, I detail how I managed to proceed with this project despite having a tiny budget.
One look at this sword and you begin to realize how challenging it was to make. From the beginning, I knew I did not have the budget to pay for a custom sword build. If I elected to omit all the ornate features of the sword (floral etchings, runes, etc.) I would still pay through the teeth for a sword this complex. To my knowledge, the only custom sword on the market that bears any resemblance to the original prop in both appearance and functionality is Brendan Olszowy's "Aphrodite's Regret." Here is a link: www.fableblades.com/Aphrodite.html
Brendan's sword has more than a few minor differences compared to Lyon's original prop, but it is an ideal representation of the original without being an exact copy; this was to be my aim with my sword build.
Given the limitations of my budget I reasoned that I should try to find a smith who would be willing to make a blade for me to my specifications, but would also not mind if I completed the work on my own: grinding bevels, polish, fittings, etc.
As the proud owner of a Scorpion Swords blade, I knew that any blade made by Chris Palmer would be tough as nails. His heat treatment is exceptional. He consistently produces blades that are durable and rugged. His aesthetic is not what I was looking for with this sword build, but I was certain I would receive a quality blade. Like Brendan Olszowy's replica, Chris's take on Hadhafang has sufficient differences between itself and the original prop: it's shorter, stouter, and has a full tang. This, however, was not what I was after. After several email exchanges, Chris agreed to make a longer version of his sword to more closely resemble the original prop. He also was gracious enough to give this sword a hidden tang rather than a full tang. Although I would have been happy with a full tang, a hidden tang gave me more possibilities, i.e. I could mount a short handle with actual fittings or create a longer handle to make the blade two-handed. He also agreed to leave the sword unfinished so I could complete the piece to my specifications. The final price was even under $300. That is one hell of a bargain!
I used an image from Kult of Athena's website to illustrate to Chris what kind of tang I wanted. After a month or so, I received the following blade.
Disregarding my early mock-up of a handle I was contemplating, you can see the finished blade had all the essential qualities: it was 30 inches long, it had the two barbs/spurs, and, even though you cannot see it here, the tang was stout enough to my liking (it is about seven inches long). Yet, it was missing the qualities I wanted to make this sword function like the original. In fairness to Mr. Palmer, I did not commission him to give the sword those qualities. I paid for a bare blade with a solid heat treatment and he delivered to the letter. His blade was 30 inches long, had an overall thickness of 3/16" or 4.87mm, a width of 1.75 inches (contrary to my early assessment in this thread of 1.5 inches), a weight of 2.6 pounds (1091g), and a point of balance that was 12 inches from the hilt. Although the blade was rather heavy, I was more concerned with weight distribution than anything else. The point of balance had to shift closer to the handle, and because this blade is stouter than the original and does not have the pronounced curvature or profile taper in the tip, I reasoned that the best thing to do was to grind a significant distal taper.
In the next installment, I spend hours with my belt sander and apply copious amounts of tiger balm to my aching back.
|
|
|
Post by csills2313 on Mar 1, 2019 15:54:14 GMT
Looks like Hadhafang will be really beautiful when finished. I would love to see how well it handles and cuts. I bet it will slice orcs into orc fries 🍟
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2019 16:22:05 GMT
In this installment, all my hard work with the belt sander pays dividends.
Grinding a distal taper is difficult enough, especially on a sword blade with so many complex curves. Grinding a distal taper AFTER heat treatment poses several difficulties. First, the blade is really hard. Chris Palmer's blades are extremely hard, which makes removing material post heat treatment an annoying process, however, if the blade overheats the temper can be badly damaged. Therefore, the trick is to remove the material very, very, very, very slowly.
I live in a second floor apartment in Buffalo. I have no place to put my belt sander where there is adequate space or ventilation other than my second floor balcony, which faces the street. Despite being in the middle of a horrible winter, we have had a few dry spells here in Buffalo. I capitalized on those dry days to do most of the grinding. I tried to schedule my grinding sessions during the day when there was enough sunlight and when the neighborhood kids were at school. If I were one of my neighbors, it would look odd to see a 250 pound man wearing a hood and mask coming in and out of an apartment with a big sword blade. Thankfully, my neighbors either did not notice or they know how to mind their own business.
Given my lack of work space, I had to place the sander on the floor. This put one hell of a strain on my back. I began with 36 grit sandpaper, then 60 grit, followed by 120 grit. I concentrated on the last third of the sword blade more than anywhere else. I wanted the tip to taper to about 2mm thick. I think this is consistent with many sabres. I used my bare hands during this process so I could feel when the blade was getting warm, and I am happy to report I only nicked myself once. Thank goodness I had my tetanus shot last year!
Since the lower grits appear to create less friction, I could grind for about a solid two minutes before having to stop and drench the blade in cool water, then wipe off, and start over again. Once I used a finer grit, however, I could grind for about 30-60 seconds. By my estimation, I spent a combined 4 hours on the belt sander. It was extremely tedious and it took about three days. Before I went into the polishing phase, I removed approximately four ounces of material.
Once the hard removal phase was over, I focused on polishing and shaping the bevels.
In the photo above, which was taken before the grinding process, you can see that the bevel does not flow into the barb/spur like the original. I did not make this request of Chris because I knew I was going to remove a lot of material anyway. I managed to extend the bevels into the spurs by using sanding discs on my dremel with three different grits. It was a big pain in the rear, but it got the job done. Once this was complete, I had to reestablish the bevels all over, but the overall look I wanted was for the bevels to, for lack of a better word, vanish into the blade. I wanted a clean look. To date, this is what the blade looks like at 220 grit.
To date, the sword has a distal taper from 4.87mm to 2mm near the tip. I removed five ounces of material and the blade is currently just over two pounds, or 950g! The point of balance, however, has barely budged. Therefore, because I am unable to find a pommel to my liking, I have arrived at the following solution: fabricate a long handle using the most dense exotic hardwood I can find and utilize metal caps and metal pins to weigh down the handle.
I selected bubinga wood for the handle. The blank in the photo below is 3/4" thick. Bubinga is REALLY dense and heavy. I am considering a handle that is around eleven inches long, tapered near the hilt, but thick at the pommel like a kukri knife with a diamond cross section. I will create a handle with a bookend assembly. That means the pommel section can be 1.5" thick. Hopefully, this will add enough weight. I reckon I need at least six ounces near the pommel section to bring the point of balance down to where I want it: about seven inches from the handle.
This is the type of pommel section I am aiming for.
I have commissioned a jeweler friend of mine to make copper plates to fortify the hilt and add weight to the pommel. I am considering using thick copper pins to add strength to the handle assembly and additional weight. At this stage, every little bit counts. While I am abandoning the original concept, my goal is to create a functional sword inspired by the original. That, I believe, is close at hand.
In a future installment, I assemble my hilt components.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2019 18:53:52 GMT
As an aside, I would like to share that the single most instructive resource for this build other than Peter Lyon's correspondence, was Liv Tyler's recent appearance on Colbert. She brought Hadhafang with her and I was able to see it in three dimensions. Note how much the tip tapers and how thin the blade gets in the last third. I could have reduced my blade even more, but I decided I wanted more meat. It won't be as fast as the original, but it will cleave with more oomph.
Fair warning, her appearance on this show is predictably adorable:
|
|
|
Post by theophilus736 on Mar 2, 2019 1:29:18 GMT
Man, this is really cool. Great work.
|
|
|
Post by Sir Thorfinn on Mar 2, 2019 13:52:18 GMT
Bravo! You are truly owning this project. Great work so far!
|
|
stormmaster
Member
I like viking/migration era swords
Posts: 7,647
|
Post by stormmaster on Mar 2, 2019 14:04:21 GMT
It is looking very nice, scorpian made me the first hadhafang v2 and I wished it was hidden tang
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 16:26:23 GMT
Thanks for all the encouragement. I just carved my first channels into some hardwood, but it is for the claymore. It's much easier than I thought with the dremel router tool. It creates the most horrible noise, a sort of diabolical combination of a vacuum cleaner and that sound Quint makes in Jaws scratching his nails on the chalkboard.
Honestly, I don't think I would have been able to do this project had it not been for all the advice I got on this forum. I am really grateful for the help.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 18:24:49 GMT
In this post, I consider a new concept.
I believe the best approach toward finishing this project is to play with a concept that is altogether different than Hadhafang.
Hadhafang is an elegant one-handed sabre created for a princess. The floral motifs and etchings represent a decadent culture at its peak. The runes are etched in the Sindarin language in what is called the Mode of Beleriand. Sindarin is an Elvish dialect created from the mother tongue of the Eldar, Quenya, and was established by the Elf King, Elu-Thingol. The Mode of Beleriand was a Sindarian runic writing system devised by the descendants of Thingol in the Beleriand region; Gondolin was a settlement of the Noldor in this region. When Gondolin fell, Glamdring, Sting, Orcrist and Hadhafang became relics of this lost kingdom.
My concept is a sword that predates the realm of Gondolin, but is an antecedent of Hadhafang, a beta sword if you will. I envision that it was used at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, or the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, a devastating defeat of the Noldor and their allies by the forces of Morgoth. My sword was wielded by an unknown Elvish warrior, or perhaps one of their mortal allies. After this battle, the sword was stored in the armory of Gondolin where it gathered dust. However, because the sword was used in one final defense against the forces of Morgoth by a contingent of warriors who stood their ground, the sword was given a special name: Methenthand, which translates as "Final Defense."
Once I have finished polishing this blade, I am going to apply a liberal patina to give it an aged look. I am going to finish up by etching its name into the blade on both sides. I will make the etchings pop by setting in copper leaf.
Here is what the runes look like:
What do you think of my concept?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2019 14:12:41 GMT
I just finished the final polish on this blade and applied several layers of patina using mustard. What do we think?
|
|
|
Post by RaylonTheDemented on Mar 8, 2019 8:30:40 GMT
From what little you show it seems nice, but WE think that you need to post more pictures!
o7
|
|
|
Post by Sir Thorfinn on Mar 8, 2019 12:39:06 GMT
Not sure I like the patina. Too little information. But I am in the 'mirror polish everything' crowd...so my opinion may be invalid from the start. More pics maybe?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 12:49:54 GMT
More pics are coming. I glued my handle material and it has set. I just need to spend some time with the belt sander to shape it up.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 14:10:38 GMT
Not sure I like the patina. Too little information. But I am in the 'mirror polish everything' crowd...so my opinion may be invalid from the start. More pics maybe? The good news about the mustard patina is that it is so weak it can be knocked off rather easily. I quite like the appearance of it, but I did it partially to cover up my subpar polishing. I assure you I didn't give up on it, but decided it will wear a patina until I learn a few things or let someone else do it. Believe me, I'd much rather have a mirror finish too. The patina has a nice antique quality to it.
|
|