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Post by MOK on Feb 23, 2019 21:53:01 GMT
I would say the sword is "unequivocally male and phallic" only inasmuch as that applies to anything that's longer than it is wide. Which for some people does seem to be absolute truth, but seriously, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. (Now, testicle daggers - unconventional phrasing forced by the language filter - that's a whole other thing...) I mean, if the penile symbolism was such a major thing then surely pikemen would be the height of glory and the envy of all mankind, right? PS. Also, nothing of the sort ever occurred to any of us kids who were always making swords out of wood, cardboard, rolled up newspapers, random sticks... We just liked swords because swords are COOL. And they're cool because they're what the heroes use - and, in hindsight, heroes use them in no small part because they're convenient sidearms and thus can be always at hand whenever a sudden need for violent heroics arises. Just like cowboys with their revolvers and secret agents with their pistols, even though longarms would be the superior choice in most tactical situations (for a full dissertation and well made counterpoint on the subject, see the seminal treatise A Fistful of Dollars, Leone et al. 1964).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 22:08:17 GMT
I would say the sword is "unequivocally male and phallic" only inasmuch as that applies to anything that's longer than it is wide. Which for some people does seem to be absolute truth, but seriously, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. (Now, testicle daggers - unconventional phrasing forced by the language filter - that's a whole other thing...) I mean, if the penile symbolism was such a major thing then surely pikemen would be the height of glory and the envy of all mankind, right? A sword is also phallic because it penetrates...
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Post by MOK on Feb 23, 2019 22:13:55 GMT
I would say the sword is "unequivocally male and phallic" only inasmuch as that applies to anything that's longer than it is wide. Which for some people does seem to be absolute truth, but seriously, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. (Now, testicle daggers - unconventional phrasing forced by the language filter - that's a whole other thing...) I mean, if the penile symbolism was such a major thing then surely pikemen would be the height of glory and the envy of all mankind, right? A sword is also phallic because it penetrates... What, and pikes don't? I know which Vlad the Impaler - one of the greatest pornstar names in history - preferred for his pseudonymous activities.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 22:19:51 GMT
Pikes, daggers, knives, spears, they're all phallic. Phalluses everywhere.
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Post by MOK on Feb 23, 2019 23:04:05 GMT
Pikes, daggers, knives, spears, they're all phallic. Phalluses everywhere. Maces, too. They even have a nob on one end... and a bulbous head.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 23:23:14 GMT
Paging Mr. Freud!
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Post by theophilus736 on Feb 24, 2019 1:42:34 GMT
I don't think children have this sociological hidden agenda when playing with swords. Thank you! The answer is definitely more complex and yet simpler than any one comment here will produce. In the West, without understanding the Medieval world, you cant answer this question. And I would posit it WILL be a different answer than you would find in fuedal Japan.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Feb 24, 2019 4:41:21 GMT
I don't think children have this sociological hidden agenda when playing with swords. Thank you! The answer is definitely more complex and yet simpler than any one comment here will produce. In the West, without understanding the Medieval world, you cant answer this question. And I would posit it WILL be a different answer than you would find in fuedal Japan. I find myself both wanting to disagree yet wanting to agree. Call me intrigued. And I'll call you son
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Post by mpsmith47304 on Feb 24, 2019 5:31:59 GMT
In many cultures the sword is associated with legendary heroes: kings, warriors, champions, and some time villains. They were expensive, and often represented the height skill and artistry for a cultures craftsmen. As symbol in the west, for example, the sword remained a symbol of martial prowess and knighthood even after they were no longer dominant battlefield weapons. We still see swords used in military inconagrphy even today.
But this is not some essential or mystical thing. It is most certainly a cultural phenomenon.
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Post by zabazagobo on Feb 25, 2019 17:33:10 GMT
I think swords also just play fun tricks on our visual processing systems. Symmetry, the illusion of a finely sharpened edge, the reflective nature, whirls and twirls and folds...they really are quite attractive. Some who have perused my collection have an aversion to weapons such as firearms, but are immediately intrigued by swords. Ornamental designs and attractive components also play a part, and the symmetrical nature of a well done guard, or tastefully done handle wraps (particularly those of katana) along with whatever bling goes into the design all captures the attention and holds it. Our brains seem particularly fond of symmetry and curves, which swords have an abundance of, as well as bright features and complex patterns, which many swords also posses.
I think all the other cultural factors are totally valid as everyone's discussed. But the question of why are they innately fascinating in and of themselves, without learned context or socio-cultural/historical perspective? I think they must just do fun things to the brain based on how our eyes perceive their features.
At least they do to my brain anyways.
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Post by nerdthenord on Feb 25, 2019 18:39:36 GMT
Exactly. There is a biologically based appeal to swords beyond any culture attitudes. They are simply beautiful.
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Post by zabazagobo on Feb 25, 2019 21:56:05 GMT
I'd love to be able to find a more exact answer to the psychological reasoning- too bad such an inquiry would be really, really difficult to score funding for.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2019 22:47:44 GMT
There's something about the sword in particular. Expose someone who's unfamiliar to a sword and you usually get one of two reactions: "Is it real?" or "Why do you have a sword?". This speaks to the idea that there's something special about a sword, that goes beyond the design and the proportions. If it was just the appeal of the visual balance then it wouldn't matter if it was a 'real sword' or just a sword-like object, we'd just be happy because the shape is nice. The shapes can be very nice, but there's more to it than that.
The idea that there should be a reason for even having the item in the first place also betrays an expectation and assumption of significance. A sword is not just an everyday thing, so it follows that there should be an explanation for it's presence in a particular environment, as a training implement, an heirloom, a curiosity, what have you.
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Post by csills2313 on Feb 26, 2019 22:00:52 GMT
Yes swords are beautiful and they appeal to our natural tendency to worship shiny things. This applies to other shiny objects such as gold silver diamonds etc. I think swords posses a mystical quality that transcends cultures and time. When mankind moved away from using stone weapons to using metal ones it was a giant technological leap for mankind.
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Ouroboros
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Imperial, Mysterious In Amorous Array
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Post by Ouroboros on Feb 27, 2019 3:10:39 GMT
My thoughts have run along these lines for a while now:
I don't think its an imaginary sword children first play with but a club/basher etc. Then the game becomes one of "what's better than stick?" "Bigger stick, better balanced stick, sharp stick. Eventually... "A stick with an edge for cutting! Aka SWORD"
I think kids have their own imaginary arms race and rules of friendly and not so friendly combat...when it comes to things to bash you over the head with or to shank you with while their eyes delight in being The Winner of the arms race.
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Post by MOK on Feb 27, 2019 5:18:51 GMT
My thoughts have run along these lines for a while now: I don't think its an imaginary sword children first play with but a club/basher etc. Then the game becomes one of "what's better than stick?" "Bigger stick, better balanced stick, sharp stick. Eventually... "A stick with an edge for cutting! Aka SWORD" I think kids have their own imaginary arms race and rules of friendly and not so friendly combat...when it comes to things to bash you over the head with or to shank you with while their eyes delight in being The Winner of the arms race. I know I certainly wasn't that logical about it. I was often playing with sticks 'cos I couldn't afford something cooler, but I imagined they were swords and laser guns right from the start - why wouldn't I? It didn't cost anything, took no time or effort, and of course a sword is better than a stick! That's why all the heroes always used them, duh!You only get a gradual arms race when you start with limited know-how and/or resources, and neither were true for imaginary weapons.
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Post by nerdthenord on Feb 27, 2019 12:30:08 GMT
I actually did start with swords, not sticks. Here in Spanish colonial land you can buy inexpensive plastic swords that are safe enough for kids to fight each other with at the local grocery store. So with my family it wasn’t who got a sword, it was who got the coolest sword. Also, the sticks here are not great at being toys due to poor quality, poor size, and thorns lol.
There was an arms race anyway though. We went through every genre of swords they made lol. The undisputed coolest was a two handed dragon hilted sword I had though. It even had a scabbard!
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Mar 2, 2019 20:02:41 GMT
For me it's because it was the primary weapon in the period I wish I had lived in. We have given up so much of our freedoms today for ease and comfort. Granted I would have to give up my 100 HP Motorcycle for a 1 HP horse but that's the only thing I would miss. My sister once said I'm the only person she knows who turned the inside of a log home into a castle. My interest in swords goes way back.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Mar 3, 2019 23:01:27 GMT
For me it's because it was the primary weapon in the period I wish I had lived in. We have given up so much of our freedoms today for ease and comfort. Granted I would have to give up my 100 HP Motorcycle for a 1 HP horse but that's the only thing I would miss. My sister once said I'm the only person she knows who turned the inside of a log home into a castle. My interest in swords goes way back. I hate to break it to ya man, but most people living several hundred years ago were not remotely free. They probably lived under feudalism and had FAR less rights than we enjoyed today. Also they could just die randomly from diseases we've completely dealt with in modern day. Heck my appendix burst when I was ten years old. If that had happened in 1200 ad, I'd be super duper dead. It's not like people back then got to wear a sword and swagger from town to town and battle to battle doing whatever they please. Thats just kinda a modern romantization of the past.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Mar 3, 2019 23:06:35 GMT
To answer the original question, I think by modern times the sword has just taken on so much cultural significance. All the media we grew up with and continue to enjoy today is steeped with sword wielding characters. Who among hasn't fallen in love with a type of sword because we first fell in love with a scene from a movie or book that featured it?
Almost every character that holds a sword is in someway treated as cool, confident, dangerous, or in some other way important.
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