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Post by markus313 on Jan 22, 2019 22:31:55 GMT
Looking for general information comparing the Hanwei Scottish Basket Hilt backsword (sharp version) vs. the Hanwei Cromwell (regarding handling, construction, durability, handle shape etc.)
I have the Scottish on the way, but am thinking about getting the Cromwell, too. Looking to practice after Silver with those - dry handling and medium to heavy cutting (the blades might be a tad short for Silver, but I have to stick to my budget).
Any input is greatly appreciated, even if you don`t have experience with both.
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 23, 2019 0:40:15 GMT
There are plenty reviews of both here on the forum. I believe the Cromwell came out on top of the Hanwei bunch. Lots of people really preferred it. I have touched on the topic before somewhere in all the discussions we had and it is an observation of a personal nature, but it seems more people picked up on it: All Hanwei stuff is very well made with a great eye for detail. Somehow one can distinguish a Hanwei from a bunch of other makes from a mile away. Hanwei had that something special vibe working for them and I did and still do like their products a lot. But and for me this is an important but, all the models I have and have handled over the years, always left me with the feeling that, sturdy and well made as they are, I had to go very easy on whatever I was holding, lest the darn thing would fall apart. This never happened but then I never gave anything Hanwei made a real good clobbering. I just did not have the guts. Some models I found, suffer more than others from this subjective feel. But in the end I would think twice before giving them a strenious workout. They look very nice, as I said, but at the same time they have this ,,petite'' thing going. Often too light of build, not very confidence inspiring. Like I said in a few reviews: ,, This thing will only last 2 minutes in the harsh reality of real battle'' and ,, a Cold Steel would probably last 5 whole minutes''. Again, I like Hanwei stuff a lot really. I am even at this moment contemplating the acquisition of the old Qi Jian and the Hanwei Charlemagne sword. Brand new and in box. These two were never cheap to begin with and now they will cost me even a bit more. Money I should spent on antiques and believe me, for the money the two old Hanwei cost, one could buy a very fine antique blue and gild job too. I am saying this just to show you that I am serious and not talking out of my neck when I say anything regarding Hanwei. Be it positive OR negative.
Cheers.
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Post by markus313 on Jan 23, 2019 2:32:08 GMT
Thank you, Uhlan, that is much appreciated. Your opinion is of special importance to me, since you`re very experienced. In addition your review of the Windlass French Cut & Thrust Sword made me get at least two of these, and they`re amongst my favorite repros.
I think I get what you mean by the “Hanwei vibe” and “petite thing”. I also must say that most of my swords are Hanwei by now. The only one I really put through its paces though was the EMSHS and it held up well (currently, I also have the Scottish Broadsword, the Kingston Arms Sidesword, the 9th century Viking sword and a Franken smallsword made from a replacement rapier blade).
Back to the Cromwell vs. the backsword again, I think I must have soaked up about every bit of information I could find. For example, I read that the backsword`s foible would lend to more blade presence, which is what I´d be looking for, probably.
I`d also like to know about the handle shape (couldn`t find info on that). It seems to me from pics that the Cromwell`s grip is more beefy and oval. If the backsword`s grip is like that of the broadsword`s, it will be pretty round and rather thin (not that I find the grip too bad).
Also I read the backsword gives the impression of greater durability than the Cromwell. It would be great to elaborate on that aspect. …I found good info on the Cromwell`s tang, but nothing on the backsword`s .
What is very interesting to me is that reputable forum members who practice after Silver seemed to prefer the handling of the Cromwell over the Backsword (perhaps not having it in mind to use for their Silver practice), despite others describing its handling as "smallsword-like" (although again others seemed to include the backsword into that comparison, too)...
Probably I`ll end up getting both anyways… It´s just always great to get other, more experienced views and perspectives, too.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 23, 2019 6:07:52 GMT
I have been thinking about the ,, petite '' and ,, smallswordish '' remarks over and over. The only thing I can come up with is that many Hanwei models seem to have been designed using input from an Asian data sheet and Hanwei somehow forgot to adjust the numbers for the American or Western market. If you look at the Side Sword for instance, the model that took the brunt of the ,, smallswordy'' remarks, from an Asian perspective, everything falls into place. For a median Asian person the sword would be rather perfect. In the hands of the median slightly overweight 250 pound six feet five Western dude things look quite different indeed. Hence the ,,petite''. I may be dead wrong, but I think it makes sense.
,, Probably I`ll end up getting both anyways...''. There you go. That's the right attitude.
Tell you what I will do after I really wake up and have tanked enough coffee: I will take both swords from the rack and take some ( side by side ) pictures covering the stuff you want to know more about.
See you later.
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Razor
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,883
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Post by Razor on Jan 23, 2019 8:04:03 GMT
Looking for general information comparing the Hanwei Scottish Basket Hilt backsword (sharp version) vs. the Hanwei Cromwell (regarding handling, construction, durability, handle shape etc.)
I have the Scottish on the way, but am thinking about getting the Cromwell, too. Looking to practice after Silver with those - dry handling and medium to heavy cutting (the blades might be a tad short for Silver, but I have to stick to my budget).
Any input is greatly appreciated, even if you don`t have experience with both. I own the Backsword and used to have the Cromwell. I've been training out of Silver's book for 11 years, handled and took measurements from 11 antique British basket hilts(one being a mort), Did the same thing with a antique German Basket hilt and antique Schiavona, and I have owned or handled and cut with a bunch of modern reproduction basket hilts swords. When it comes to durability, they're bot sturdy swords and I had no problems cutting mats with either of them. The Cromwell blade is thicker than the backsword, So it is stiffer and the tip it pointier. But with handling, the Backsword is closer to the antiques than the Cromwell. I'm trying to remember the handle on the Cromwell(Sold it around 2012-2013) but I know the backsword handle is oval-ist to almost round but I can still index it for edge alignment. What I do remember about the Cromwell handle, is that I didn't like the metal spacer that was in between the basket and handle and right above the knot. You can kind of see it in this picture. www.kultofathena.com/images/SH1049_6_l.jpgI can use blades around 32" to 34" for Silver with 33" probably being the most ideal for me. So both Hanwei backswords work for me.
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Post by markus313 on Jan 23, 2019 9:39:44 GMT
I have been thinking about the ,, petite '' and ,, smallswordish '' remarks over and over. The only thing I can come up with is that many Hanwei models seem to have been designed using input from an Asian data sheet and Hanwei somehow forgot to adjust the numbers for the American or Western market. If you look at the Side Sword for instance, the model that took the brunt of the ,, smallswordy'' remarks, from an Asian perspective, everything falls into place. For a median Asian person the sword would be rather perfect. In the hands of the median slightly overweight 250 pound six feet five Western dude things look quite different indeed. Hence the ,,petite''. I may be dead wrong, but I think it makes sense. ,, Probably I`ll end up getting both anyways...''. There you go. That's the right attitude. Tell you what I will do after I really wake up and have tanked enough coffee: I will take both swords from the rack and take some ( side by side ) pictures covering the stuff you want to know more about. See you later. You see, you fine gentlemen make me do the most evil things… the Cromwell was just ordered.
Photos would be greatly welcomed. Seeing these two side by side would even add to the thrill of anticipation (waiting for the backsword for weeks, arrgh…).
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Post by markus313 on Jan 23, 2019 9:41:28 GMT
I own the Backsword and used to have the Cromwell. I've been training out of Silver's book for 11 years, handled and took measurements from 11 antique British basket hilts(one being a mort), Did the same thing with a antique German Basket hilt and antique Schiavona, and I have owned or handled and cut with a bunch of modern reproduction basket hilts swords. When it comes to durability, they're bot sturdy swords and I had no problems cutting mats with either of them. The Cromwell blade is thicker than the backsword, So it is stiffer and the tip it pointier. But with handling, the Backsword is closer to the antiques than the Cromwell. I'm trying to remember the handle on the Cromwell(Sold it around 2012-2013) but I know the backsword handle is oval-ist to almost round but I can still index it for edge alignment. What I do remember about the Cromwell handle, is that I didn't like the metal spacer that was in between the basket and handle and right above the knot. You can kind of see it in this picture. www.kultofathena.com/images/SH1049_6_l.jpgI can use blades around 32" to 34" for Silver with 33" probably being the most ideal for me. So both Hanwei backswords work for me. Thank you for your reply, Razor. I must say I was hoping for you to chime in, too. Thanks for taking the time and effort. Getting the thoughts of an experienced Silverist is of great value to me. I have to accuse you of making me ordering the Cromwell, too
All kidding aside, thank you both for helping me out of that dilemma. Sometimes all it needs is a little push, a bit of encouragement. Otherwise, there would be a lot less pleasure…
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 23, 2019 13:15:37 GMT
Here are the pictures and some numbers. Blade thickness B= 6mm...C=5mm. Blade width B= 33mm...C=34mm. Blade length B=83.5 cm...C=83.5 cm. Checked the stiffness: Virtually the same. The grips: As far as I can see, without dismantling the swords: Both have virtually the same grips. The only real difference is that, while the C grip is not thicker, the ribs are more pronounced. The C grip has material pulled in so as to form the pronounced ribs. There is no material added to the grip. I hope I made myself clear. It is obvious when looking at the pictures. The fat ribs of the C are a plus. If one were to do the same with the grip of the B handling could improve. Conclusion: The numbers tell me that both blades are virtually the same basically. There may be variations because of the different baskets. These may account for a more or less percieved difference in character, as are the fat ribs on the C. For the rest, in my opinion, if a good blind test were done, most people would not be able to tell the swords apart. These two swords operate in that ethereal area where much is in the eye of the beholder. And there lays the problem. As there are no shocking differences between the two, apart from the basket designs, the weight of which may lead to a percieved acute difference in handling, it is amazing that so many people swear by only the C or only the B. As it is often the case in this grey area where one has to deal with subjectives, perceptions are often defended with a vigour almost comparable with religious fanaticism. Funny that.
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Post by markus313 on Jan 23, 2019 17:22:39 GMT
Thank you very much for the fantastic pictures and additional information and for taking your precious time to invest in the effort. This greatly helps most of my pondering and is very much appreciated. Now I`m eager to get my hands on the exemplars. Comparing / exploring subtleties can be a ton of fun, imo. Now of course I had to order a CS Backsword, too, just for good measure – and to see if they may have improved on the design somewhat. Although rather unlikely, most probably. Ah well, we`ll see… Still have stacks of epoxy.
You gave your backsword the most beautiful liner I ever saw. Gorgeous.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 23, 2019 17:43:24 GMT
The "antique" finish isn't really a coating, it's the result of some aging techniques. I didn't like it and sanded the blade a bit on mine. It's not totally gone but looks much better, more like an old used blade and not an aging experiment gone wrong. Btw, I disassembled the guard and pommel, the grip is glued on the tang.
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 23, 2019 20:59:49 GMT
Always willing to help people out. No problem. Andi: Would you mind posting some pictures of the tang in the database? sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/40975/sword-construction-data-baseThanks. I think the age effect is just etched in the blade, but may need some serious elbow grease to remove. 60 grid on a small block could do it, but I have this feeling the steel might be quite hard. Markus: Thanks for the compliment. It was one of those fun little jobs. Removing the dreadful plastic coating or paint from the real ray skin was quite a bit harder to do. And much messier. Believe me. Cheers.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 24, 2019 2:57:05 GMT
Sorry, I didn't remove the epoxied grip, only screwed off the pommel, and the visible threaded rod doesn't give much information. Same with my Hanwei Scottish Broadsword.
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