|
Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 5, 2018 21:17:46 GMT
A great video by Skallagrim that I stumbled across this afternoon. Possible you've already seen this (maybe it's even been posted here before), but for those who haven't, here you go:
|
|
|
Post by csills2313 on Dec 8, 2018 18:31:39 GMT
Very interesting topic you have touched upon. Considering that metal armor was rather expensive to make compared to leather armor, one would tend to think that leather armor was indeed commonly used in ancient times. Metal armor was also rather expensive to maintain compared to leather armor. Repair of mail and plate armor required the skills of a skilled artisan in their day. The guy in this video contends that leather armor was used but not in the way it is pictured in movies and games.
Of course a lot of everyday clothing was made of various types of leather however it was not considered to be armor of any sort.
|
|
|
Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 10, 2018 3:48:24 GMT
I think a lot of the problem is that leather degrades extremely fast compared to metal, leaving us with few artifacts. Also, leather armor is difficult to identify in pictoral evidence. That said, at least in Medieval Europe linen armor seems to have actually been the cheap, easily accessible armor that leather is commonly thought of as.
I wonder if Medieval European leather armor was just a small phase in between full chainmail and full plate. I could see hardened leather being used as a stiffener over mail to help absorb the force of blows (chainmail being pretty bad at that). It doesn't quite seem to be used all on it's own; rather as a supplement to another kind of armor.
|
|
|
Post by bluetrain on Dec 10, 2018 12:43:17 GMT
If I were wearing chain mail, I'd want the leather underneath. In any event, I suspect that warriors may have been more flexible in their thinking regarding protective gear. In later periods, like the 17th century, heavy leather coats ('buff' coats) were used along with plate armor, usually all worn together. Fashion may have entered into the matter. And I don't know how widespread the use of buff coats was but it was certainly used in England. Apparently the use of metal armor declined literally piece by piece, with certain pieces continuing in use based on their utility, other pieces presumably being deemed useless. Chain mail shoulder pieces were still in use in the 19th century to protect the shoulders from sword cuts. They survive today in some dress uniforms. Gorgets survived as badges of rank or office rather than as rudimentary pieces of armor.
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 10, 2018 14:10:54 GMT
Wearing the "leather" armour (probably rawhide rather than leather) underneath would be less protective. The rawhide armour is quite rigid, and putting mail over something rigid robs it of the ability to move with a hit. Put mail on something soft, and it resists and penetration by points well. Put it on a rigid surface, and you can chop through the rings.
As for standalone vs worn with mail, early Medieval European plate armour was often worn over mail (excepting helmets, an even them, sometimes). Natural to expect the same for the rawhide versions.
|
|
LeMal
Member
Posts: 1,085
|
Post by LeMal on Dec 10, 2018 20:02:15 GMT
Timo's point about rawhide is pretty important IMO. Rawhide makes *extremely* good armor and shields, compared to other kinds of leather. ("Hardening" can work well on treated leather, but it's extremely tricky; rawhide's a piece of cake to work with--at least by comparison, especially in small pieces.)
I think a lot of misconceptions in the history/sword/HEMA/re-enactment communities about the viability of "leather armor" have come from not considering and testing rawhide seriously enough.
Plus, keep in mind that if not maintained, rawhide can often be even more prone to deterioration than tanned leather--which would make it even more reasonable that we lack extant examples.
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 10, 2018 21:42:00 GMT
Some nice photos of a variety of rawhide armour in orient.spbu.ru/books/tahiyyat/index.html#89 (David Nicolle, "Leather Armour in the Islamic World: a Classic Problem"), including a bunch of helmets from Damascus that are made of multiple layers of rawhide.
|
|
|
Post by bluetrain on Dec 11, 2018 11:29:20 GMT
Although I have had leather garments, in particular one of those wool-lined leather 'jerkins' worn from WWI into the 1950s in the British Army, I have no experience with either rawhide or buff leather coats. The buff leather coats seem to have had a relative short service life, being in fashion for maybe a hundred years or so. I think many are still in existence in museums but I've never seen one in the flesh, so to say. A leather jerkin, though, would offer moderate protection against cut, even though they are sleeveless. But a thick overcoat might offer even more protection.
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Dec 11, 2018 13:09:31 GMT
But a thick overcoat might offer even more protection. The Russians might agree on that one.
|
|
|
Post by bluetrain on Dec 11, 2018 15:36:56 GMT
Probably warmer, too.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Dec 11, 2018 22:12:19 GMT
Good topic that ties into other post on Stilleto usage, and cutting, stabbing, penetration dynamics.
|
|
|
Post by usher on Jun 19, 2019 22:01:44 GMT
how strong was the leather armor they used in mid centuries! and just compare it with the 1's nowadays! are they still the same are different now?
|
|