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Post by LastGodslayer on Nov 30, 2018 12:57:35 GMT
A bit of a head scratcher for me...
Two hands on the grip means adequate control of the blade, both for starting the cut or stopping it. One handed though, especially with larger blades, it seems impossible to me to simply just "stop on a dime", especially on downward cuts, both vertical and diagonal.
How was this addressed in martial arts? Can one launch a powerful cut (especially downwards), one handed, with a larger blade (think 90cm or 3' or so blade, over 1Kg or 2.5Lbs) and suddenly stop? Or is it always necessary (and desirable) to "flow" out of the cut? How do you guys keep the blade off the ground and other objects when swinging hard?
I keep thinking of the Kaishakunin's dakikubi. How the hell does one cut hard enough to cleave bone but stop a centimeter or two right after?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 30, 2018 14:01:01 GMT
One-handed, transition into a slicing draw cut. That way, it isn't a sudden stop, but a gradual change of direction. It isn't something I've practiced to not-quite cut through a target, but it's a good thing to practice for faster recovery, less exposure, etc., after a cut. Works two-handed, too, although it isn't as essential (unless you're a kaishakunin).
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Post by Wes Cameron on Nov 30, 2018 14:41:39 GMT
It's not difficult, but more so than with a hand + 1/2 sword. Easier to stop going across the body to the inside than away to the outside, but can be done, however I like to chamber it by the hip in the case of going to the outside in preparation for a thrust or cut.
Edit to add: The arming sword I'm using is almost 3 lbs, and it is not hard to stop. The long sword would not be much different as most of them would not be much heavier. I can stop the long sword with one hand the same way as stopping the arming one handed sword, but the balance with one hand on the long sword feels a bit odd to me. For downward strikes it would be difficult to stop it before hitting the ground, and the heavier/longer the sword is the more difficult it would become compared to a less heavy/long sword.
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Post by leviathansteak on Nov 30, 2018 15:16:29 GMT
For shoulder powered cuts, i let the sword flow through into another guard with the point behind me, then cycle it up for another cut or guard position.
If i want to stop the sword in front of me but low by my feet, i will tweak my angle to make the cut less vertical and more horizontal, but still diagonal.
Hitting the ground is much less of an issue if you do wrist or elbow powered cuts as you can simply and quickly bring the blade around for a moulinet
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Nov 30, 2018 17:18:52 GMT
I'm not sure why you would want to stop on a dime post cut. In most cases any momentum carried through a cut can be easily redirected into circling back to a guard and/or followup attack.
Short, staccato strikes have their place, but they don't generally carry through a target (and sometimes have some degree of rebounding motion).
If you are having too much trouble recovering from one-handed use of a longsword, it's possible that you need to adjust your posture and cutting structure to better control the sword's momentum.
It's also possible the sword in question is just not suited to your using it single-handed (due to any number of factors including weight and balance).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2018 15:20:28 GMT
Stopping a two handed cut with a one handed block is totally fine. Biggest concerns are angle of interception and the alignment behind the contact.
Why would you want to do a static block? There's a time and place for anything. Sometimes you want to reroute or detour traffic, sometimes you want a big heavy bollard that incoming traffic will not get through even if it smashes itself against it.
It's like making someone walk into a wall thet can't see. They expect to keep going but their whole posture and balance is suddenly disrupted. Anybody should be able to see a way to capitalize on the opportunities that presents.
But without the right angle and structure behind it, not going to do a lot of good.
Cheers.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2018 17:05:59 GMT
Think I misunderstood this one.
You'd want to be able to deliberately stop your own one handed cut on a dime so as to not create a dependency. It's kind of the other side of the equation in my previous post.
If you count on being able to flow from cut to next guard or cut, how do you recover when something prevents you from completing your intention?
This is one of the reasons stance work, posture, and attention to so many little details matter, because they help develop a solid platform that can remain or regain stability in the event of being screwed with. Worrying about width of stance, where your feet are, where you are issuing power from, how and how much plays into both what you are doing and subtly what options you have ready when the program breaks due to interference
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Post by Cosmoline on Dec 4, 2018 18:17:02 GMT
I've never had a problem with it. I don't know why you'd want to put so much force into a single hand cut that you can't stop it and reverse. Obviously, this requires a moment in time during which the opponent can seize the initiative.
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Post by csills2313 on Dec 5, 2018 12:27:44 GMT
I think that I understand your question. The ability to control and stop a downward swing requires a lot of practice. I have seen videos online where a Samurai Swordsman is able to cut apple or other piece of fruit placed upon someones abdomen, head or even their neck. It would take really good hand/eye coordination to be able to pull that off consistently. Not to mention a ability to judge distances properly.
I was looking around and found this video that demonstrates this. As you can see, the master is able to do this without even nicking the persons neck. It is true that the fellow here doing the cutting is using both hands, however I would assume that if he can do it two handed it can probably be done with one hand as well.
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Post by Wes Cameron on Dec 5, 2018 14:34:48 GMT
This is really just stage magician stuff. In the video it is clearly seen that the sword does strike the person, it even jolts his body and his adams apple protrudes then settles back down. There are many demonstrations on variants of this such as cutting water Mellon on someones stomach. You could take a relatively sharp sword and cut down on apple and cut it, but the same move would not cut through skin. But, if it included a drawing motion, the blood would be drawn.
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Post by LastGodslayer on Dec 5, 2018 15:00:48 GMT
Didn't expect this much input. Thanks everyone.
Yeah, stance might play into it. Flowing out, although the most sane thing to do, sometimes isn't what one wants. The kaishakunin HAS to stop the cut on a dime but he can use both hands. I guess its a subtle skill, born from a combination of other skills, that can allow something so difficult. Just try to swing something with 3 foot long blade, one handed, straight down or at an angle down. Cut something as simple as an apple hanging from a thread, but with the apple only 1 feet from the ground. See if you can not touch the ground beneath it. I cant. Its super hard...
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Post by Cosmoline on Dec 5, 2018 18:52:53 GMT
I think the key is to cut for the stop. So you've planned to make the cut only to a certain point. The best example I know of is the zorn ort, where a fast downward strike is set up to clear the center and stop lined up with the opponent's neck and head for the thrust. And that's simply a matter of adjusting your attack angle and body position. If you're making a cut that's set up to flow through the target, then yes it's really difficult to stop it on a dime.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2018 22:43:00 GMT
Whatever cut you make, you should have control before, during, and after. It should stop where you decide to make it stop, not wherever it happens to swing to. If it jerks you past where you wanted to stop, it's because you didn't make the cut correctly. One or two hands that shouldn't make a difference. If it does, work on it!
But yeah that stage show was pretty silly. It looks like most of the jerking is from the assistant being worried about having his throat cut. I hope he was well paid for his part in the act.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 5, 2018 23:39:10 GMT
Cut something as simple as an apple hanging from a thread, but with the apple only 1 feet from the ground. See if you can not touch the ground beneath it. I cant. Its super hard... This - an apple - is not so hard. It's so easy to cut an apple that you don't need much in the way of speed or oomph, and you can be slowing the sword down before it even reaches the apple, and you can still cut it. Even better, the thickness of the blade can finish splitting the apple by wedging it apart without cutting all the way through it. I used to do a similar party trick to that apple vid. At parties, of course. With the apple on the belly, not the throat. Sword less than butter-knife sharp, but it would still handily cut through the apple. Put a cardboard box, about 1 foot high, on the ground. Practice swinging your sword so that you just touch it at the end of the swing. When you can do that consistently, take the box away, and practice some more. Then put the hanging apple there. Do the same swing as with no apple, and you will cut it in two. (Or simpler, put the apple on the box.) Different story if you try to do this with something hard to cut through, rather than a really easy-to-cut target like an apple.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Dec 6, 2018 0:03:22 GMT
Yeah, when I drill saber, there is no start and stop. I put momentum into the blade, and then use that momentum to continuously flow into different cuts and guards. This is even easier with an opponent, since the energy transferred into your blade during a parry and be used to generate a cut of your own. If you do need to stop your action, flourish you blade back around into a guard after cutting. It feels a lot more natural than trying to just force your muscles to bring a fast moving piece of metal to a dead stop.
I'm attaching a video below that I think illustrates this principle really well. To be clear, I do NOT think everything they do in this duel is accurate and martially sound. However, they are all very comfortable with their swords and their exaggerated movements show how they are working with the momentum of the sword rather than fighting it.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Dec 6, 2018 2:51:25 GMT
What it looks like in source material
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 6, 2018 5:42:42 GMT
A bit of a head scratcher for me... Two hands on the grip means adequate control of the blade, both for starting the cut or stopping it. One handed though, especially with larger blades, it seems impossible to me to simply just "stop on a dime", especially on downward cuts, both vertical and diagonal. How was this addressed in martial arts? Can one launch a powerful cut (especially downwards), one handed, with a larger blade (think 90cm or 3' or so blade, over 1Kg or 2.5Lbs) and suddenly stop? Or is it always necessary (and desirable) to "flow" out of the cut? How do you guys keep the blade off the ground and other objects when swinging hard? I keep thinking of the Kaishakunin's dakikubi. How the hell does one cut hard enough to cleave bone but stop a centimeter or two right after? A one handed sword is often balanced much differently than a two handed sword. I can swing all of my sabres at a downward angle, and stop them as well, going from a downward blow at around 110 degrees, trying to have the most force of the swing being around my knees.
Googling the term you reference I found it referred to the duty afforded to the one who has to behead the one who has performed seppuku, which seems it would be with a katana, and maybe two handed to make sure it was a clean cut. Typically, in fighting you don't swing that low unless you're trying to strike the legs, which would be a much less angled strike. Most single - handed swords I've handled, even if poorly made are at least light enough to stop a cut and sort of "roll" it into a guard or another position, and most can be stopped and redirected outright.
In fencing, I have had the issue of my sword tip touching the ground, but only when I began. Learning the length of your blade and how to adapt to shorter and longer blades is important in swordplay.
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Post by LastGodslayer on Dec 7, 2018 12:07:27 GMT
Cosmo, I think that is what Jon was saying about stance. I will try the box method you described Timo. I struggle with the apple, but I haven't trained for it. Just as a test. I also don't keep my swords super sharp, which probably doesn't help... Elbritannia, I also think - awesome video BTW - that flowing motions are in general better for the body, but like zenhydra put it, a sort of stacatto motion, is sometimes needed. I think of it as a bullet type problem. The bullet must go through as easy as possible, but you don't want it to hit something beyond the target it was aimed for. Some level of control is necessary. Its just that with heavier blades, with one hand, gravity assisted, control diminishes. At least for me.
I guess, like Jordan implied, it is the fact that one handed swordplay does not cater to this kind of motions, at least, with weapons that are cleary designed with two hands in mind. Between the index and thumb, and the heel of the hand, there probably isn't enough leverage, in a normal person, to exert the level of control that usually requires both hands.
I imagine stance helps with this, but I feel the limiting factor is probably the hand.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 8, 2018 5:53:13 GMT
Cosmo, I think that is what Jon was saying about stance. I will try the box method you described Timo. I struggle with the apple, but I haven't trained for it. Just as a test. I also don't keep my swords super sharp, which probably doesn't help... Elbritannia, I also think - awesome video BTW - that flowing motions are in general better for the body, but like zenhydra put it, a sort of stacatto motion, is sometimes needed. I think of it as a bullet type problem. The bullet must go through as easy as possible, but you don't want it to hit something beyond the target it was aimed for. Some level of control is necessary. Its just that with heavier blades, with one hand, gravity assisted, control diminishes. At least for me. I guess, like Jordan implied, it is the fact that one handed swordplay does not cater to this kind of motions, at least, with weapons that are cleary designed with two hands in mind. Between the index and thumb, and the heel of the hand, there probably isn't enough leverage, in a normal person, to exert the level of control that usually requires both hands. I imagine stance helps with this, but I feel the limiting factor is probably the hand. The limiting factor is the strength of the wielder, and balance of the specific sword. More so the strength of the wielder bu obviously outliers like Nodachi/Odachi, Zweihander/Montante will bark at that. I just got a KC Korean sword, very much a two hander and at the end of last summer when I bought the first one I couldn't cut effectively with it one handed, or even wield it very well at all without two hands and longsword technique. Fast forward to now, having lost 50 pounds of fat and working out, it feels like a choppy one handed sword. I decided to use it as a katana analogue (being essentially a straight katana without the handle wrap or samegawa) and fasted a long cardboard shipping box onto the seat of a particularly low seated chair. I first cut it with one hand, standing as the poser would stand in the wiki article for the term you mention in the OP. I cut through it and didn't feel like it pulled me away. I then cut it with two hands, not much more control but same result. I also cut some bottles with it, using it like I would a sabre.
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Post by markus313 on Dec 8, 2018 16:16:50 GMT
I practice a German style of fencing that uses a lot of of power cuts. The first cutting exercise consists of changing between “full” cuts (letting the tip flow through) and cuts into “Langort” (later also Ochs and Pflug and Eber etc., but in general stopping the tip in front of the body vs. driving it around). Applying of universal body mechanics and being able to interact timely through the whole fascia is of great importance. Willingly cutting into a position in front of the body requires more of a pushing motion, while full cuts are executed with more of a pulling motion (talking primarily of the relation of latissimus vs. serratus involvement). To me this is all very hard to explain in (written) language. Many points are important, e.g. keeping your weight "under" the sword (with an upright/stiff spine, bending/twisting only at the hips). Pulling vs. rolling the shoulders after the point of (anticipated) impact (or change of tip direction). "Sinking" your hips with a stiff torso to help deceleration of the blade. Keeping the shoulders down, elbows/wrist in and in a line, supporting the true edge etc. Both shoulders are connected, so both need to be stabilized throughout the whole movement. The strength of the hand is also dependent on the overall body structure/alignment.
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