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Post by blackjack on Nov 3, 2018 2:17:41 GMT
Are the Long sword cutting competitions a pure modern invention taken from the Japanese, or were there actual cutting comps in european history?
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Post by Jordan Williams on Nov 3, 2018 4:12:15 GMT
Unsure of medieval.
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Post by nddave on Nov 4, 2018 3:20:26 GMT
Maybe, you know I've never really read or seen much on the subject. Normally tournaments in medieval times seemed to be more combative than competitive. I'm sure there was as well as street displays of swordsmanship that could be compared to modern cutting competitions.
Then again was there actual medieval Japanese cutting competitions? I've never really looked into that so I don't really know. Honestly I think cutting competitions are in fact more a modern thing as an outlet to use swords and display swordsmanship. Especially since swords aren't used in modern warfare nor are the status symbols they were then.
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Scott
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Posts: 1,675
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Post by Scott on Nov 4, 2018 4:38:06 GMT
Not so far as I'm aware, you had tournaments or hunting. Hunting was seen as preparation for war, and killing a stag with a sword while it tries to disembowel you with it's antlers is probably a better demonstration of skill with a sword than cutting a bundle of reeds.
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Post by leviathansteak on Nov 4, 2018 6:49:08 GMT
There's no evidence for test cutting in medieval europe afaik. But i think its highly likely that it was done
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Post by bluetrain on Nov 4, 2018 12:02:26 GMT
I think there might have been a certain amount of boasting and such demonstrations of fighting abilities when two armies were arrayed before one another prior to battle, particularly by the leaders. But that would probably been true more in the earlier part of the Middle Ages rather than the latter and perhaps more likely when Europeans faced invaders from the East or from Africa. I have read that King Richard cut an iron bar in two with his sword in a meeting with Saladin, who sliced through a pillow with his sword. But one shouldn't believe just anything you read.
I suspect, however, that most demonstrations would have been little more than shouting and beating on shields. The Welsh, of course, would have sang songs.
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Post by leviathansteak on Nov 4, 2018 12:38:02 GMT
Have a look at this artwork. Its not definite evidence for medieval test cutting... but it does remind me of that old japanese practice of cutting up condemned prisoners. Note that the victim has a cut on his thigh already
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Nov 4, 2018 13:58:11 GMT
I doubt if there were cutting competitions as we know them today.
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Post by Cosmoline on Nov 6, 2018 0:31:28 GMT
There are Persian illustrations and descriptions of using clay as a test-cutting media. And there's marginalia showing cutting at what might be test targets or pells. But there doesn't seem to have been as much focus on verifying how far a blade would cut through something. There's some interesting art I saw recently from a church wall in the 15th showing swords being sold. They had no handle furniture on--they were being bought as bare blades presumably to prevent any attempt to hide crappy tangs. That really makes it difficult to "proof" the blade before sale. And I don't think they did that. IIRC neither did the Japanese until late in their history. FWIW very few if any of the cuts in the source book require a perfect cut. But presumably students would have had some level of practice to ensure blade angle and timing on the strikes.
The 1915 show cutting would possibly have roots in medieval theaters. But much of that remains a mystery.
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Nov 6, 2018 1:45:22 GMT
Not so far as I'm aware, you had tournaments or hunting. Hunting was seen as preparation for war, and killing a stag with a sword while it tries to disembowel you with it's antlers is probably a better demonstration of skill with a sword than cutting a bundle of reeds. I just want to point out that deer don't intentionally attack people with their antlers. It may seem unintuitive, but they defend themselves with their fore-hooves.
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Post by bluetrain on Nov 6, 2018 4:15:43 GMT
The British Armed Forces have sometimes done some interesting exhibitions of military skills. One of the more unusual was a drill in which a small field gun was disassembled and passed through an opening in something and other fun things to do with field guns. I don't recall if it was the Royal Navy or the Royal Marines. Things like that were sometimes done at tattoos, like the Edinburgh Tattoo. Several armies sometimes do firepower demonstrations and large-scale mock battle scenes for an assembled crowd in a stadium. I imagine the sword cutting exhibition was something like that. There were so-called tent pegging (or something like that) by Indian cavalrymen armed with swords or lances in another large-scale mostly mounted exhibition put on in the U.K. for Queen Elizabeth in 2012.
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Post by Cosmoline on Nov 6, 2018 17:28:56 GMT
Not so far as I'm aware, you had tournaments or hunting. Hunting was seen as preparation for war, and killing a stag with a sword while it tries to disembowel you with it's antlers is probably a better demonstration of skill with a sword than cutting a bundle of reeds. I just want to point out that deer don't intentionally attack people with their antlers. It may seem unintuitive, but they defend themselves with their fore-hooves. I think it depends on the season. I've seen moose and caribou both attack with antlers. I've had moose antlers in particular leveled at me more than once LOL
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