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Post by reynolds on Oct 30, 2018 3:40:41 GMT
bears kill less than 3 people per year, in all of N america. Dogs kill 25 per year or more. People kill thousands of other people per year. Also, most bear attacks are by black bears and some occur in your sleeping bag, so you wont have diddly in the way of defense, most likely. The ASPCA says that every year in the US, over 700,000 people are dogbitten badly enough to seek medical care. Nobody worries about dogs, so why worry about grizzlies? You wont likely be stopping a bear charge with a body hit with ANY pistol, other than a fluke spine hit. Bears charge at 50 fps, feet per second, and only a brain hit is likely to suffice. Several bears have been stopped with 9mm bullets to the brain. Sometimes, even chest hits with 9mm have sufficed. Dont slow yourself down vs dogs and men, by having a .44, even in 'bear country". The odds are far higher that youj'll need it vs the smaller critters, as vs grizzlies. Grizz only get above 500 lbs where there's salmon runs. Tjhe typical black bear weighs 200 lbs, except big boars just prior to hibernation, when they may well have put on 150 lbs of fat. there's LOTS of 300+ lb men, and nobody "thinks" a .44 is needed vs such men. www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5VNkITiqS
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Post by MOK on Oct 30, 2018 7:56:20 GMT
Hostile dogs and bears are encountered in entirely different contexts.
Also, a 200lb man is nothing like a 200lb bear, be it black or grizzly.
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 30, 2018 8:28:13 GMT
We need mosquito guns badly
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Post by MOK on Oct 30, 2018 8:42:49 GMT
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Post by reynolds on Oct 30, 2018 15:19:50 GMT
that's right, the men attack in gangs, with GUNS. They truly ARE nothing like bears, but you've got it backwards about which one is 100x as dangerous as the other.
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Post by MOK on Oct 30, 2018 15:49:21 GMT
that's right, the men attack in gangs, with GUNS. They truly ARE nothing like bears, but you've got it backwards about which one is 100x as dangerous as the other. Which one is more dangerous depends entirely on where you go and what you do. I wouldn't worry about bears in a dark inner city back alley, nor about violent gangs of armed people out in the woods. Of course, the best way to deal with wild animals is to pay attention and stay away from them. (Actually, I guess that goes for potentially hostile people, as well. ) But you never know what might go wrong and what it will take to deal with it - getting a little too close to a bear's cubs is kind of a different deal from running into a starving mountain lion, say. Although, if you're really feeling the need to carry a gun in case of animal encounters, instead of just wanting to carry a gun for the fun of it, I say you should stop half-assing things and make it a rifle.
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Post by reynolds on Oct 30, 2018 16:04:09 GMT
i've been attacked, or nearly attacked, out in the woods. It happens every day somewhere. Bear attacks are MUCH less common. I carry the "people gun" regardless of where I am. If you're worried about bears, you want a sporting autorifle, in 308 or 30-06, with nosler Partition softpoints. Something that you can get 4-5 hits per second, with real power, accuracy and range. If a bear's within 100m of me and doesn't leave when I make myself obvious, I install the earplugs, (spring band around my neck) aim carefully at his head and start shooting. Anything less is half assed.
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Post by MOK on Oct 30, 2018 16:08:08 GMT
i've been attacked, or nearly attacked, out in the woods. It happens every day somewhere. Bear attacks are MUCH less common. But then, that's in large part simply because bears are a lot less common. People and dogs you see every day. Er. Why not just move away yourself?
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Post by reynolds on Oct 30, 2018 18:08:24 GMT
cause predators see flight as a cue to attack, that's why. All he has to do, to go on living, is show me that he's willing to share the woods. I"m no threat to him, unless he's a threat to me. But I'm not going to live looking over my shoulder, or be scared in my sleeping bag.
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Post by MOK on Oct 30, 2018 21:08:31 GMT
Well, yeah, that's why you shouldn't run away, sure.
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Post by reynolds on Oct 31, 2018 22:22:48 GMT
even walking away is backing down, which is not good when it comes to predators. For over 200 years now, animals and fish that attack humans have immediately been hunted down and killed, not passing on their genes. So the critters that consider us anything but WAY too dangerous to mess with have been grossly reduced in numbers
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Post by howler on Nov 2, 2018 5:08:35 GMT
Hunting & fishing in Alaska, and near significant populations of Grizz, probably a good thing to have .44 mag minimum (fmj), rifles & shotguns using rifles slugs are best, then (assuming you only own the one gun, .44 mag) swap out for reduced loads at night against two legged predators. Most people in Alaska probably have many different guns.
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Post by reynolds on Nov 2, 2018 16:16:05 GMT
having and wanting to carry all or even 2 of them are not the same thing. I'd never sweat it as long as I had my pocket 9mm.
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Post by howler on Nov 2, 2018 19:03:20 GMT
having and wanting to carry all or even 2 of them are not the same thing. I'd never sweat it as long as I had my pocket 9mm. I understand the playing of the odds that a grizz will not charge you, so just carry a human appropriate firearm. The late Chuck Karwan had articles written about appropriate handguns (assuming no long gun) vs dangerous animals for those in higher risk areas where you might not want to risk. You would want to throw everything into penetration, so fmj in the higher calibers. The super magnums are boat anchors, but they do have more punch, as brown bear are incredibly powerful.
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Post by reynolds on Nov 2, 2018 21:05:10 GMT
no, wrong idea. The chest hit wont reliably stop them and the boat anchors are almost worthless vs men or dogs. The money and time you waste the boat anchor is far better spent becoming faster and more accurate than you are now. you have to brain one in order to reliably stop it. So you get ONE shot with the monster, with less skill, or 3 shots with a 9mm, that you're better with and which is a FAR better choice for men or dogs.
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Post by howler on Nov 3, 2018 1:25:53 GMT
no, wrong idea. The chest hit wont reliably stop them and the boat anchors are almost worthless vs men or dogs. The money and time you waste the boat anchor is far better spent becoming faster and more accurate than you are now. you have to brain one in order to reliably stop it. So you get ONE shot with the monster, with less skill, or 3 shots with a 9mm, that you're better with and which is a FAR better choice for men or dogs. Not talking men or dogs, though I'd take 10mm, .40, .45 over 9mm. For grizz, I'm talking super magnums (500 S&W, .460, etc...or even .454 casull). The idea is that a perfect shot MUST penetrate adequately and with sufficient force. .357mag, 10mm, .40 S&W, .45 are also superior to 9mm for grizz. The Glock 10mm utterly destroys any 9mm for grizz...humans too.
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Post by reynolds on Nov 3, 2018 16:38:36 GMT
you can't read, and dont know diddly. even the casull does not outperform a 20 ga slug, due to the greatly increased diamter of the 20 ga. NOBODY recommends the 20 ga for bear defense, despite it being 4x as likely to get the needed brain hit as with ANY handgun, and offering a buckshot option to boot, along with being useful for small game and birds, none of which is true of the 454. BODY HITS can't be trusted to stop charges, with ANY load, even big rifles. Get that thru your thick head.
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Post by howler on Nov 3, 2018 19:49:02 GMT
you can't read, and dont know diddly. even the casull does not outperform a 20 ga slug, due to the greatly increased diamter of the 20 ga. NOBODY recommends the 20 ga for bear defense, despite it being 4x as likely to get the needed brain hit as with ANY handgun, and offering a buckshot option to boot, along with being useful for small game and birds, none of which is true of the 454. BODY HITS can't be trusted to stop charges, with ANY load, even big rifles. Get that thru your thick head. This is a bizarre post. First, what's with the "can't read and don't know diddly" and "get that thru your thick head"? Your ALL OVER THE MAP with the different comparisons to my basic and simple post (most people think 12 ga when talking shotguns, for instance). I'm comparing 9mm to the SUPERIOR handgun options for Brown Bear. Your the only one on this forum who evidently believes a 9mm is better against grizzly than a 10mm, casull, 12 ga with rifled slug, etc... I'll put it even simpler, nobody on Gods green Earth should choose a 9mm Kahr mini over a 10mm Glock 20 with 6" barrel when being confronted by a Brown Bear. If we agree on that last sentence then we now have a basic starting reference. Now, if you want to go into greater detail on why you think the 9mm would be a better choice...I'm still all ears, as the answer would be quite fascinating.
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Post by William Swiger on Nov 4, 2018 15:31:41 GMT
Do Canadian bears get secondhand smoke buzzes and then get the munchies for human treats?
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Post by bluetrain on Nov 4, 2018 16:28:07 GMT
The one and only acquaintance of mine, a relative of my wife, who has first-hand experience in these matters, recommends a shotgun with slugs. He never even mentioned handguns. A half-way decent pump-action shotgun is also cheaper than a .44 magnum or 10mm auto, even though a handgun is handier.
There are also mountain lions. A surprising thing about black bear attacks is where they have happened, like in New Jersey. A co-worker where I used to work before retiring had a photo of a black bear on the deck of her parent's home in New Jersey. I couldn't say how dangerous they are but I've seen black bears in the woods on two occasions, although it wasn't the woods behind the house. There have been bears spotted in the county where I live outside Washington, D.C., so I figure it's only a matter of time.
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