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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2008 21:30:08 GMT
I just finished watching "The Charge of light brigade " (1968) and I discovered that they were not using 1796 light cavalry saber but instead they were using straight blade with 3 bar hand guard .What is the name and military model of this sword and where can I get the reproduction one ?
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Post by rammstein on Jul 8, 2008 21:45:24 GMT
Possibly the 1796 HEAVY cavalry? Unfortunately I'm not sure where to get a replica, but maybe searching that term (heavy) will get you decent result? Sorry I can't be more helpful than that.
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Post by hotspur on Jul 9, 2008 0:22:26 GMT
Most importantly, think about the timeline before pursuing much more thought. The two 1796 sword types mentioned are better placed in history before this time, a half century later. I don't think I have seen the movie in it's entirety for many, many years but it is now on my "much watch movie to identify sword" list. Historically, the two most common sword types the British were fielding during the Crimean war were the 1822 and 1853 models. the 1853 is a little straighter but both have a slight curve. Nothing nearly as pronounced as the 1796 light cavalry. Military Heritage/Discriminating General and IMA sell reproductions of the 1822. I don't know of a source for reproduction 1853s. Here is a link to the MH/DG folk www.militaryheritage.com/swords2.htmI'm sure Jonathan Hopkins will be along momentarily to straighten us all out on the real historical truths of the matter but I would think those two swords best encompass what was there at that battle. Cheers Hotspur; Brit ish swords come in some interesting subcategories as well
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2008 0:51:20 GMT
Glen is correct, but one year off as far as patterns if you go by Robson. Officers of light cavalry and hussar regiments would have carried Pattern 1821 light cavalry officers' swords (until recently oldswords.com referred to the pattern as 1822). Within this Pattern there would have been some blade variation. Older swords (made pre-1845) would likely have pipe back blades like this P1821: And post 1845 P1821s would have a fullered "Wilkinson" style blade like this: Troopers in light cavalry and hussar regiments would have carried either Pattern 1821 light cavalry troopers' swords... ...or Pattern 1853 universal cavalry troopers' swords (this was the first British cavalry pattern for both light and heavy cavalry). As far as I know the only repro of cavalry swords of this era in British history is the Military Heritage Pattern 1822 light cavalry trooper's sword (which should be called a Pattern 1821 light cavalry officer's sword--troopers' swords had leather grips and the grip backstrap had ears). Coincidentally, I just watched the Errol Flynn 1936 "The Charge of the Light Brigade". It was mostly fictitious, but was reasonably entertaining. The lancers appeared to be carrying P1821 heavy cavalry officer's swords instead of the light cavalry pattern, but what can ya do?
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Post by hotspur on Jul 9, 2008 1:11:25 GMT
Hi Jonathan, was there not an 1822 troopers sword at all, or do all these references have catching up to do? Would you belive I thought about typing 1821? ;D
I am really not at all familiar with the brigade details but have to assume they were not all officers. Was the trooper version simply... simpler?
Is it all completley wrong and confused because of the advent of the gothic hilt infantry and rifle regiment swords?
Cheers
Hotspur; I thought the 1822 was what us colonials used as a pattern for our 1833
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2008 2:08:22 GMT
Oh, sure, make me take out the book...
;D
P1821 LC Trooper's Sword Called Pattern 1821 because of a 10 December, 1821 letter from the Adjutant-General's office to the Board of Ordinance requesting to issue 296 swords "of the new pattern for light cavalry" to the 4th light dragoons. Robson (Swords of the British Army, 1996) writes, "The Board of Ordinance was forced to reply that it had no knowledge of any new pattern and in reply the Adjutant-General forwarded two new pattern swords, made by Prosser, which the King had recently approved for heavy and light cavalry respectively. This was the first appearance of the Pattern 1821 cavalry swords."
P1821 LC Officer's Sword Essentially a more posh version of the P1821 trooper's sword, it was made official in the 1822 Dress Regulations. I assume the 1821 designation is a result of when the King approved the design, or perhaps since it is so similar to the trooper's sword from that year and for convenience it is lumped together with this design.
P1822 Infantry Officer's Sword Called Pattern 1822 for convenience since it first appeared in the 1822 Dress Regulations.
So it is not necessarily incorrect to call the P1821 LC or HC swords P1822s, but most regard Robson's book to be the Bible of British military swords and will follow his lead as far as the naming of this pattern. Later swords have official government designations that remove the ambiguity, e.g. "the sword, Pattern 1908".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2008 3:07:49 GMT
Thanks guys for the great info. I used Jonathan's info and tried to identify the sword in this movie . The clearest one that I can tell is the scene with captain Morris galloping his horse pass Lord Cardigan and lord Cardigan yelled at him not to force the pace and ride before brigade general. Captain Morris pointed the sword and yelled "Seventeen , Charge " the sword look like pattern 1821 light cavalry trooper sword. I have long held beleive that in that movie they used curvy sword like 1796 light cavalry saber but may be my television was too old ( I had Goldstar tv/vcr combo) May I ask what prompt the British to adopt P 1821 and replaced 1796 if the 1796 severd with such distinction in Waterloo ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2008 18:52:54 GMT
There are several possibilities. The first reason for a new sword has to do with the relationship between the maker Prosser and King George IV. During the period 1810-1820 Prosser was on the cutting edge (no pun intended) of blade design and sword fashion due to his relationship with the Prince Regent. This relationship carried on after the Regent became King. On a basic level, Prosser designed swords that were well-received by George IV and he approved his favoured cutler’s designs which were to become the regulation pattern swords of 1821/1822.
The P1796 was not a universally well-loved pattern. One of the main complaints was that it was only suited to the cut and that it was a very poor thruster. The new cavalry patterns were straighter and had spear points (rather than hatchet points), and were supposed to be equally suited to cutting and thrusting.
So in a nutshell, I think that the change was for both functional and political reasons.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2008 2:25:44 GMT
Jonathan Thank for clear that up , it made sense that King George would spend his military budget getting sword from his good friend especially if they were supposed to be improvement over the 1796 . Now I have to go looking for that model 1821 so I can scream "seventeenth , charge " in my garage .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2008 13:36:49 GMT
I am not sure if they were an improvement, but such changes were probably considered "progress". If you get the Military Heritage version of this sword please post a review!
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