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Post by billy02 on Oct 11, 2018 5:35:22 GMT
If you are interested in pirate history and the swords they use, i think this article will interest you guys a lot, here have a read at Cutlass Sword.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Oct 11, 2018 7:16:26 GMT
I have yet to see a cutlass made with a hook for disemboweling opponents, unless you mean the Chinese hook sword but I don't know if I would consider that as a cutlass in the usual sense. Serrations can be found on 17th century Dussacks, with one being found in the Wallace collection however I am skeptical of the claim you make of them being made to disembowel opponents. Except that many cutlasses didn't have basket hilts, and there is quite a lot of variation in blades, with clamshell guards, simple knucklebows, half baskets, figure eight guards, straight blades, curved blades. There's a ton of variation in cutlass blade and guard form. I'm not saying this is inaccurate, just that it's sort of like saying "a carbon steel sword is made of carbon steel". It's redundant. No argument here, the shorter hefty blade meant it was more easily wielded in the less open spaces on board vessels. I don't have any actual sources, but I've read that the average weight range for classes was between 1.5 to 2.5 pounds. I wouldn't call cutlasses lightweight, but will say seeing them called lightweight is a nice break from the axe sword stereotype. The issue with firearms in this era is more that they are single shot. We see apparent evidence of naval vessels using sharpshooters and guns to repel boarders, and flintlock pistols were used often with the infamous blackbeard being said to carry ten of them. Ships had tools for work. A sailor was more likely to be in arms reach of a tool such as a knife or an axe than a weapon, and if you need to quickly cut a rope in an emergency it's probably way more useful to use the knife at your belt than the cutlass on the rack. To cut a board you could use your weapon and maybe damage it or loosen the hilt, or you could just use an axe. A sword having two edges does not mean it's inherently bad at cutting wood and shrubbery. In fact, the French artillery gladius was used as a tool quite convincingly, and apparently the American M1832 made a nice camp tool as well. Not sure how much shrubbery a pirate needs to cut. I find that my own weapons are not good at being machetes due to being balanced like weapons. I wouldn't say the cutlass requires less training to use than other weapons. It is perhaps more intuitive to use than some, like say a rapier or smallsword, but without proper training and knowledge of fighting with the weapon the weapon will be just a sharp iron bar, and as effective as such. Not all had baskets, and you may find closing in to punching distance a little harder than you think, and that one punch may not so easily defeat a determined attacker or defender, unless you follow up the punch immediately with a cut or thrust. 20 inches seems to be really on the shorter side though no? Most military cutlasses I've seen for instance range between 25 and 28 inches. Also, just above you said that the cutlass was light, and now you're saying it's perfectly heavy. I'm not sure that the curve in handles is a universal feature, or they it adds force to attacks or allows for faster recovery. It allows the point to be more in line, and places the weight of the blade more towards the front of your hand. Nit-picking here, but I'm pretty sure modern navies don't regard the cutlass as a viable weapon anymore
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Post by Jordan Williams on Oct 11, 2018 7:17:51 GMT
billy02, why not spend some reading time on the forums and gather up knowledge for your articles? Then they'd be informative, fun to read, and not just be something you post randomly here for page clicks. I like that you're writing articles, but you could really benefit from refining your craft.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2018 11:56:48 GMT
billy02 , why not spend some reading time on the forums and gather up knowledge for your articles? Then they'd be informative, fun to read, and not just be something you post randomly here for page clicks. I like that you're writing articles, but you could really benefit from refining your craft. Sure, the craft of spam. Think about it.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 11, 2018 13:28:23 GMT
A good way to tell what pirates preferred, which changes over time, is to look at contemporary drawings and paintings. In many cases they do not match the present day concept. I question the material in “Cutlass Sword”.
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Post by markus313 on Oct 11, 2018 15:08:31 GMT
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Post by abtomat on Oct 11, 2018 22:51:37 GMT
When you say cutlass, cuttoe, hanger or what you are basically talking about an edged weapon that appeared more or less around the 17th Cent. It reflects the acendency of the square rigged ship with its multiple cannon broadside that emphasized firepower over ramming or fighting what was essentially a floating battle with heavily armed and armored troops. Firepower becomes more important to blast the enemy into submission or reduce their ability to repell boarders. Edged weapons are still important, but as the cannons and tactics get more sophisticated, their primacy gradually slips more and more. You see the same pattern on land as the musket and bayonet supplant the infantry sword.
Still, a sturdy, somewhat short sword with a useful hand guard is a desirable thing to have when close combat is called for. Virtually any ship, whether naval or merchant, carried cutlasses as part of the ships armament during the 17th through the 19th Centuries. In some cases this practice doesn't end until the middle of the 20th Century.
Most naval ships carried cutlasses made to specific patterns as the 18th Century moved along into the following ones. These are usually very sturdy swords with some full or partial basket hand guard. Earlier examples, like the British "figure eight guard" cutlasses of the late 18th Century, were somewhat roughly made. As time moved on the cutlass was made to the same standard as infantry and cavalry swords. The British pattern of 1840 or the American Model 1860 are good examples of this. Some were issued with scabbards. Many were simply racked or kept in arms lockers.
Merchant ships carred arms chests containing cutlasses which might be duplicates of the military ones or simply the cheapest ones to be had. In the later instance a little research will show a bewildering array of blade types and hilt styles. This is because the end of the line for a lot of older sword blades was to be refurbished and rehilted as simply as possible to make a useful weapon for a seaman to use in an emergency.
When did cutlasses cease being made as serious naval weapons? I don't know, but I do own a Soviet Russian M-1940 naval cutlass dated 1946. These ended up being issued to naval cadets until the 1970's when, owing to their weapon grade construction they were deemed to dangerous for the cadets to keep wearing. Regards, ABTOMAT
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 12, 2018 3:10:48 GMT
Cutlasses are mentioned being used in southern India by the Brits in small crafts that were necessary to navigate the rivers and tight places to combat smuggling and slave trade a ship of the line could not navigate in the mid 19th century. There was a case about 1940 that the Brits used cutlasses to board a German ship anchored in Norway containing prisoners. That was the last boarding that I know of involving cutlasses. The Dutch used them as late as the 1950s in Indonesia.
Thanks Markus, that article is informative. I'll have to come back to finish it and may very well give it a second go.
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 13, 2018 12:52:07 GMT
A cutlass was not a uniquely pirate weapon but it could be said that it was a uniquely naval weapon. Sailors and presumably pirates, too, also used axes and pikes for hand-to-hand combat when boarding enemy ships but the cutlass remained in use well after those disappeared (I think!). Or at least on hand. A sword that we would describe as a cutlass does not seem to have been used so much on land, except I suppose by pirates, although the typical 18th century infantry hanger sword was very similar and maybe even the same thing. Today's pirates carry different weapons
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Post by MOK on Oct 13, 2018 13:53:15 GMT
A cutlass was not a uniquely pirate weapon but it could be said that it was a uniquely naval weapon. Sailors and presumably pirates, too, also used axes and pikes for hand-to-hand combat when boarding enemy ships but the cutlass remained in use well after those disappeared (I think!). Or at least on hand. A sword that we would describe as a cutlass does not seem to have been used so much on land, except I suppose by pirates, although the typical 18th century infantry hanger sword was very similar and maybe even the same thing. Today's pirates carry different weapons I can't see any functional or stylistic difference between cutlasses and hangers, and historically both words (and other related terms) were applied equally to weapons used on both land and at sea, by navies and armies alike. The distinction seems to be a very modern thing.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 13, 2018 14:10:45 GMT
I think it would be safe to say that the infantry hangers and cutlasses are the same but with different names. Artillery units also used short swords. Though most were not intended for combat but for utility work such as clearing a firing lane, make a trail, or fascine work. The Brits had one that that was clearly designed for combat by coming complete with a knuckle bow on a 25” bladed sword. I don’t know the model.
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 13, 2018 16:16:47 GMT
There are many instances of things being given a distinction or name that did not exist when the thing was in use. Sometimes the original name may linger on and be applied to something new that officially has a different name. But usually, the technically incorrect modern designation for something still has some useful new meaning, as when different variations of something are given different model names or numbers that never existed when actually issued. But the names or model numbers as are presently used are well understood and of value.
A cutlass is one type of sword I've never handled. But they are typically described as heavy in non-technical references (though not here, of course) and I wonder how true that was. I have handled a rapier and remember being surprised at the weight.
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Post by MOK on Oct 13, 2018 16:30:26 GMT
A cutlass is one type of sword I've never handled. But they are typically described as heavy in non-technical references (though not here, of course) and I wonder how true that was. I have handled a rapier and remember being surprised at the weight. I'd say as a general rule they have the same amount of material as sabers, rapiers, broadswords etc. just in a more compact package - "heavy" for their size, perhaps, but not heavy for swords. (The stylistically similar "leadcutters" are a different beast.)
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Post by howler on Oct 13, 2018 19:15:10 GMT
I think it would be safe to say that the infantry hangers and cutlasses are the same but with different names. Artillery units also used short swords. Though most were not intended for combat but for utility work such as clearing a firing lane, make a trail, or fascine work. The Brits had one that that was clearly designed for combat by coming complete with a knuckle bow on a 25” bladed sword. I don’t know the model. Speaking of short swords used for utility work, were some cutlasses used in regions, like the Caribbean, as machete tools?
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 14, 2018 16:06:27 GMT
I think it would be safe to say that the infantry hangers and cutlasses are the same but with different names. Artillery units also used short swords. Though most were not intended for combat but for utility work such as clearing a firing lane, make a trail, or fascine work. The Brits had one that that was clearly designed for combat by coming complete with a knuckle bow on a 25” bladed sword. I don’t know the model. Speaking of short swords used for utility work, were some cutlasses used in regions, like the Caribbean, as machete tools? I cannot confirm this, but I seriously believe so. The English speaking islands in the Caribbean still refer to a machete as a cutlass which needless to say confused the heck out of me until I figured it out. I can’t remember where now but some years ago I was reading about some now forgotten location and cutlass appeared frequently for utility work that I would not have thought. After discovering some islands in the Caribbean using the term cutlass for machete I believe they were doing the same.
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JakeH
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Post by JakeH on Oct 19, 2018 0:54:24 GMT
There was a case about 1940 that the Brits used cutlasses to board a German ship anchored in Norway containing prisoners. That was the last boarding that I know of involving cutlasses. That would be 'The Altmark Incident' in February 1940. The jury is somewhat out on whether or not they actually used cutlasses in that boarding. Some articles say so. Some don't mention cutlasses, but rifles, pistols and bayonets (in hand). Most of these are second and third hand accounts and don't cite any sources for the weapons used. An article in the Daily Mail, 20 June 2003, from The HMS Cossack Association (the principle ship in the boarding action) states that while there were some cutlasses locked in a box somewhere for ceremonial use, they were not used in the boarding. I certainly want to be believe (I do... I DO believe in cutlasses), but I have to take this one with a grain of salt due to the conflicting stories and general lack of hard evidence. Jake
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