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Post by howler on Nov 3, 2018 3:32:34 GMT
Even Jerry Miculek can't shoot like Jerry Miculek when shot at, and getting punched in the face has killed many, not only by the punch, but the slamming of the skull into the ground (cerebral hematoma). howler- Look up the “21 Foot Rule” or The Tueller Drill, and you can see how Police are trained. Yeah, I was just answering Reynolds in the basic way that you act different...when you know pills are a comin' at ya in life and death.
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tonystark
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Post by tonystark on Nov 3, 2018 4:04:24 GMT
Unfortunately brandishing a firearm or discharging a “warning shot” has gotten gun owners criminal charges before. That is not a recommended action to take according to 2nd Amendment supportive lawyers. That may not be the case in every state, but in some states showing (even potential criminals) your gun, or “brandishing,” to people around you can get you arrested. Also anyone who carries a firearm for self defense, and is not willing to take a life in that defense, really shouldn’t be carrying it for defense. I agree. I was referring to a "shot that misses" (probably meaning that I'm a poor shot ), not a warning shot, as that can be construed as illegal. You can certainly brandish in your own home (under appropriate conditions, of course, but you would want to call it in to the authorities after the incident. If you pull it in public, you better REALLY have a good reason, baby. Shooting to injure...under special circumstances, maybe. Gotcha, my bad! In the privacy of your own home all bets are off, you’re absolutely right. I’m not saying that owning a gun makes someone a bloodthirsty maniac (and I know you weren’t either) it’s just a concept I had to explain to my wife when she decided to Concealed Carry. In Forum terms it’s like owning a sword for self defense. The day you strap that scabbard....or saya for katana fans...on your belt you have to accept the very real possibility that if you use that sword to defend yourself or another, you could be forced to tasked their life if they don’t relent. Moreso with a firearm, or at least I think it’s safe to assume a gunshot wound might have a higher chance for fatality as an outcome then a sword. Don’t worry about your accuracy by the way, just practice as often as you can, and I’m certain you’ll be as accurate as you need to be. Not everyone’s Robin Hood with a handgun!! (and I don’t mean the steal from the rich part either) LOL
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tonystark
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“I told you, I don’t want to join your super secret boy band!”
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Post by tonystark on Nov 3, 2018 4:05:20 GMT
howler- Look up the “21 Foot Rule” or The Tueller Drill, and you can see how Police are trained. Yeah, I was just answering Reynolds in the basic way that you act different...when you know pills are a comin' at ya in life and death. 10-4 😉
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Post by howler on Nov 3, 2018 4:24:13 GMT
I agree. I was referring to a "shot that misses" (probably meaning that I'm a poor shot ), not a warning shot, as that can be construed as illegal. You can certainly brandish in your own home (under appropriate conditions, of course, but you would want to call it in to the authorities after the incident. If you pull it in public, you better REALLY have a good reason, baby. Shooting to injure...under special circumstances, maybe. Gotcha, my bad! In the privacy of your own home all bets are off, you’re absolutely right. I’m not saying that owning a gun makes someone a bloodthirsty maniac (and I know you weren’t either) it’s just a concept I had to explain to my wife when she decided to Concealed Carry. In Forum terms it’s like owning a sword for self defense. The day you strap that scabbard....or saya for katana fans...on your belt you have to accept the very real possibility that if you use that sword to defend yourself or another, you could be forced to tasked their life if they don’t relent. Moreso with a firearm, or at least I think it’s safe to assume a gunshot wound might have a higher chance for fatality as an outcome then a sword. Don’t worry about your accuracy by the way, just practice as often as you can, and I’m certain you’ll be as accurate as you need to be. Not everyone’s Robin Hood with a handgun!! (and I don’t mean the steal from the rich part either) LOL Robin Hood with a handgun, I guess he isn't as deadly as with the bow & arrow...at least immediately after getting his first gun. But give him some time to put what he did with the archery into the firearm and your talking deadly. Now, a "Hood with a handgun"...that's a BIG problem.
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Post by reynolds on Nov 3, 2018 15:50:01 GMT
there's documented cases of center chest, all pellet blasts of buckshot not stopping men for several seconds. Ditto 8mm, 308, 3006 ball, 7.7 Japanese torso hits and guys kept fighting until they bled out. All you have to do, if you want real world cites, is contact Massaad ayoob and ask for some. A 90% load still fails 1 time in ten and hundreds of people were shot with the 125 gr 357 jacket load, so dozens of them were failures. you can blow apart the heart and the brain still has 4-5 seconds worth of oxygenated blood in it. The gun can charge 30 yds in that time, or fire 20 shots. Well all I asked for is 1 documented case of a single person surviving 6 torso shots of .357 Mag JHP’s. I already did my research on it, and there are zero cases of an individual surviving, or as you put it “kept on coming.” Having been through the Police Academy already I know Mr. Ayoob’s writings very, very, well. He would never make a claim like you did, and any stories he does share with his classes are stories that can be verified. In fact, if you do know his material you’d know that he doesn’t say a word that can’t be corroborated. For legal reasons of course, but still. you're fos. Massad Ayoob and Evan Marshall have documented dozens of cases and who says you'll get 6 hits with 357, dipstick. You havn't researched far enough to tell your butt from a hole in the ground. Who says you wont have time to get at a gun in a purse or bellyband? many have done so. Many have ran and got a gun from a car or some other part of the home, etc. Many have come to the aid of others from afar, too. But you can't make the gun from a hunk of metal fast enough, so it's got to be there, ready to fire, but a blindingly fast draw is often not needed.
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Post by reynolds on Nov 3, 2018 15:56:51 GMT
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Post by reynolds on Nov 3, 2018 16:00:45 GMT
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Post by reynolds on Nov 3, 2018 16:01:22 GMT
you know even less about gun use than you do about sword fighting, for real
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tonystark
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“I told you, I don’t want to join your super secret boy band!”
Posts: 816
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Post by tonystark on Nov 3, 2018 16:17:53 GMT
Gotcha, my bad! In the privacy of your own home all bets are off, you’re absolutely right. I’m not saying that owning a gun makes someone a bloodthirsty maniac (and I know you weren’t either) it’s just a concept I had to explain to my wife when she decided to Concealed Carry. In Forum terms it’s like owning a sword for self defense. The day you strap that scabbard....or saya for katana fans...on your belt you have to accept the very real possibility that if you use that sword to defend yourself or another, you could be forced to tasked their life if they don’t relent. Moreso with a firearm, or at least I think it’s safe to assume a gunshot wound might have a higher chance for fatality as an outcome then a sword. Don’t worry about your accuracy by the way, just practice as often as you can, and I’m certain you’ll be as accurate as you need to be. Not everyone’s Robin Hood with a handgun!! (and I don’t mean the steal from the rich part either) LOL Robin Hood with a handgun, I guess he isn't as deadly as with the bow & arrow...at least immediately after getting his first gun. But give him some time to put what he did with the archery into the firearm and your talking deadly. Now, a "Hood with a handgun"...that's a BIG problem. I’m sure with plenty of time and effort Robin Hood would be taking out the Sheriff of Nottingham’s men with the greatest of ease, a semiauto in each hand, and a quiver full of magazines instead of arrows LOL If you want to see a Hood with a gun there’s plenty of that going on sadly.
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tonystark
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Post by tonystark on Nov 3, 2018 16:29:40 GMT
Well all I asked for is 1 documented case of a single person surviving 6 torso shots of .357 Mag JHP’s. I already did my research on it, and there are zero cases of an individual surviving, or as you put it “kept on coming.” Having been through the Police Academy already I know Mr. Ayoob’s writings very, very, well. He would never make a claim like you did, and any stories he does share with his classes are stories that can be verified. In fact, if you do know his material you’d know that he doesn’t say a word that can’t be corroborated. For legal reasons of course, but still. you're fos. Massad Ayoob and Evan Marshall have documented dozens of cases and who says you'll get 6 hits with 357, dipstick. You havn't researched far enough to tell your butt from a hole in the ground. Who says you wont have time to get at a gun in a purse or bellyband? many have done so. Many have ran and got a gun from a car or some other part of the home, etc. Many have come to the aid of others from afar, too. But you can't make the gun from a hunk of metal fast enough, so it's got to be there, ready to fire, but a blindingly fast draw is often not needed. I see that you are unable to back up your own made up claims with any actual facts, so as I thought you’re one of those ridiculous “keyboard experts” or whatever you wannabe firearms experts are calling yourselves nowadays. I can provide evidence to back up everything I have said, and by the way YOU were the one who claimed there were “countless” cases of someone being shot 6 times in the torso with .357 Mag JHP’s that “kept on coming.” Perhaps you should go back and reread your own unsubstantiated nonsense before you call B.S on someone who can actually prove what he says. I have honestly wasted more than enough time typing a calm and rational response to someone who has more made up stories than The Inquirer, so consider this my last response to you. By the way, it might help your tall tales a little if you didn’t get all bent out of shape when a person asks you for a little evidence to back up your “claims.”
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Post by bluetrain on Nov 3, 2018 20:41:15 GMT
One thing missing in this discussion, perhaps understandably, is the reality of shootings (and cuts and stab wounds, too). It is rare to see illustrations accompanying articles about the latest super-duper cartridge (or sword from Universal). In fact, they're rare in hunting articles. I can only remember one book that was illustrated with gunshot wounds, although it's a rather dated book now. An 8x10 of someone shot in the face with a shotgun is eye-opening, to say the least. Such things tend to take the fun out of being a gun enthusiast.
There aren't too many sword fights these days but unhappy people still show up at hospitals, especially in town, with bad cuts and stab wounds, all (presumably) from knives. Motion pictures are even worse about knives than they are with guns. People will not freeze up and silently fall to the ground when hit with a thrown knife.
We can talk about knock down power, if you want. Fairbairn said that the more he learned about gun fighting and wounds from gunshots, the less sure he was about anything.
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Post by howler on Nov 3, 2018 21:11:47 GMT
Your right, Blue. Real world shootings & stabbings are quite the gruesome affair, with nothing cut and dry/by the numbers/black & white, so one can only make general assumptions, with too many variables for exact specificity. Well, except to avoid gun & knife fights like the plague. Just type in machete fights on YOUTUBE and watch a dude chop off another persons dominant hand with a long, cheap machete (a man is rendered darn near defenseless) and you get some idea of the real world horror. The sad tales the bloody ground of Rwanda could tell on the terrible use of the basic machete.
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Post by reynolds on Nov 5, 2018 16:06:08 GMT
I aint buying copies of Ayoob or Marshall's books for you, twit. I gave you cases wherein such thing have happened. you dont know ayoob's stuff at ALL, or you'd know that he's said, multiple times, that even 223 softpoints and 12 ga buck and slugs have faild to stop men and 357's fail about 10% of the time
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Post by reynolds on Nov 5, 2018 16:06:51 GMT
Why dont you ring mass up and tell him that the IPSC guy from ILL asked him if he's melted any Micros lately?
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tonystark
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Post by tonystark on Nov 5, 2018 18:04:50 GMT
One thing missing in this discussion, perhaps understandably, is the reality of shootings (and cuts and stab wounds, too). It is rare to see illustrations accompanying articles about the latest super-duper cartridge (or sword from Universal). In fact, they're rare in hunting articles. I can only remember one book that was illustrated with gunshot wounds, although it's a rather dated book now. An 8x10 of someone shot in the face with a shotgun is eye-opening, to say the least. Such things tend to take the fun out of being a gun enthusiast. There aren't too many sword fights these days but unhappy people still show up at hospitals, especially in town, with bad cuts and stab wounds, all (presumably) from knives. Motion pictures are even worse about knives than they are with guns. People will not freeze up and silently fall to the ground when hit with a thrown knife. We can talk about knock down power, if you want. Fairbairn said that the more he learned about gun fighting and wounds from gunshots, the less sure he was about anything. Agreed, and even though I occasionally talk to a guy in Kentucky that has a YouTube gun channel, and his day job is in the County Morgue, I doubt the Mod’s would like autopsy photos of gunshot wounds posted! LOL Plus for legal reasons I don’t think the victims families would agree either. Ha, yeah not too many duels fought anymore, so sword wound channel’s aren’t something you’d see outside of a Cold Steel sword testing video 😁
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tonystark
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Post by tonystark on Nov 5, 2018 18:07:50 GMT
Your right, Blue. Real world shootings & stabbings are quite the gruesome affair, with nothing cut and dry/by the numbers/black & white, so one can only make general assumptions, with too many variables for exact specificity. Well, except to avoid gun & knife fights like the plague. Just type in machete fights on YOUTUBE and watch a dude chop off another persons dominant hand with a long, cheap machete (a man is rendered darn near defenseless) and you get some idea of the real world horror. The sad tales the bloody ground of Rwanda could tell on the terrible use of the basic machete. Avoidance: to avoid being shot, stabbed, disembowled, or dismembered. New definition for the Oxford English Dictionary! LOL
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Post by howler on Nov 5, 2018 19:24:33 GMT
Your right, Blue. Real world shootings & stabbings are quite the gruesome affair, with nothing cut and dry/by the numbers/black & white, so one can only make general assumptions, with too many variables for exact specificity. Well, except to avoid gun & knife fights like the plague. Just type in machete fights on YOUTUBE and watch a dude chop off another persons dominant hand with a long, cheap machete (a man is rendered darn near defenseless) and you get some idea of the real world horror. The sad tales the bloody ground of Rwanda could tell on the terrible use of the basic machete. Avoidance: to avoid being shot, stabbed, disembowled, or dismembered. New definition for the Oxford English Dictionary! LOL You had me at disemboweled & dismembered...well, disemboweled actually.
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Post by bluetrain on Nov 5, 2018 19:42:51 GMT
The book that I mentioned with photos of gunshot wounds was "Handgunner's Guide," by Chic Gaylord. Published in 1960, it is incredibly dated and reflects some of the popular shooting games of the day. Remember the fast draw craze? But it was, and still is, unusual in including photos of bullet wounds in corpses, although only the entrance wounds were shown. At the time, though, most handgun bullets were only available in either plain lead, full metal jacket or soft point. But hollow points were not long in coming. The only thing was, the bullet wounds were those in dead people, not those who were shot and survived. That is, I think that was the case. At any rate, there were no statistics quoted that I recall about how bullet X was so much better than bullet Y.
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Post by reynolds on Nov 6, 2018 1:17:07 GMT
Chic was bought out by Seventrees. Chic 'thought' that you wanted the 600 fps, 200 gr lrn in a .38 snub. enough said, I think. No expansion, very little penetration, 150 ft lbs. You can do better with a .22lr autorifle, if you have CCI stingers in it. At least you can pull brain hits with it easily at much greater distances and faster, with less practice/expense than you can reliably get chest hits with the .38 snub. Remember the guy who use a glove and "fanned" the slide back on a chamber empty 1911 .45? Why not just holster it and use the thumb safety? I was doing it that way in 1968. Seemed obvious to me. I carried a 1911 while doing night security with an Army guard dog, in Korea in 1972, around the nuke missiles that we didn't have in S Korea. :-) I used a thumbsnap Bianchi holster on my pants belt, with a leg thong. I began practicing ccw fast draw in 1964, so I was literally lightning with that openly worn .45. I could toss up a soda can, draw and hit it in midair, with ease. The trick is knowing how to throw the can, believe it or not. I was not supposed to have a mag in the pistol, but I did. I would have chambered a rd, too, but I was constantly drawing and dry snapping it. None of that stuff was allowed, but there was nobody to tell me different. If they'd tried, the dog might have accidently gotten away from me, and everyone knew it. Those things would tear hell out of anyone that they could reach, except their handler and sometimes they'd try their handler, too. Several times I had to snatch up a dog and let him dangle by the choke chain until he passed out. When we were actually working with the dog, he was on a collar, which would not let us choke him out. So I practiced drawing the .45, disengaging the safety, hooking the rear sight on the outside seam of the thigh of my pants, and cycling the slide one handed in that manner. If I'd ever had to shoot an Army dog, tho, there'd have been hell to pay.
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Post by reynolds on Nov 6, 2018 1:28:47 GMT
Chic also claimed a 1 second draw and hit from an ANKLE rig, standing there with one leg in the air. :-) I later made an upside down ankle rig, with a tensioned trigger guard welt and a pull-thru velcro strap for the bobbed off hammer of a Chief's .38, and never quite cracked 1.5 seconds, except for a point blank 1 handed hip shot. I wore it inside of the ankle, on the opposite leg from my drawing hand. Chic favored the rig on the outside of his firing side leg. when I sat with one leg over the other, I could very discretely have my hand on the gun butt, up inside of my pants cuff. One time, tho, as I had to kick at a dog that was attacking me, the .38 went bouncing down the pavement, in front of quite a few people in our small town. :-) I rushed back to my gun shop and nothing was ever said about the incident. I quite using that rig, and soon got rid of the .38, in favor of a hot-handloaded, locked breech Star Pony .380. 70 gr soft lead hp, hollowbased, 1200 fps. It messed up chucks and coons pretty well. Fouled the hell out of the bore, but who cares? I only carried the 7 rds in the gun. The fouling aint gonna matter for 7 rds and when all you have is a pocket 380, 2-3 rds better suffice, or LUCK is going to be the main determinant of the outcome. Normally, just the sight of your gun (aimed at them, 2 handed, eye level firing stance and a twisted, grim look on your face, suffices. It's sufficed for me 4x. The other 3 times, I once had to fire over their heads, cause it was dark and they didn't believe that I had a gun, and 2x, it was a one handed point position. I've made a few draws on mean dogs, too, and the only time I've had to fire, I brained a dog with a .22lr handgun as he tried to tear off my jewels. I also fired over some young thieves' heads as they fled. I was po'd, 17, and they were 100m away. So I just one handed it, aimed about 10 ft over them and 10 ft in front of them. It was a joy to behold them diving off of the road, onto some stops of mown-off horseweeds. I heard later that they ran all the way to the highway, about a mile, flagged down a kid that they knew and told him to reverse, that I was after them with a .45! :-) I was 17, they were 15, and I'd just gone back into the house after the shot.
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