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Post by howler on Oct 30, 2018 0:48:48 GMT
the 41 in full charge mode is WAY too hard to control in rapidfire. Repeat hit times are twice as slow as almost anyone can manage with a 9mm that cocks itself after each shot. Misses are commonplace in combat, and so are poor hits. So is having more than one attacker. many cops prefer not to have to buy a separate ccw gun for off duty. They want the same gun and load for off duty and on duty. The .41 can't manage that. the swc .41 load was nothing special as to its stopping power, and the gun stays huge, heavy, expensive. If you want to equip an entire police dept with one gun, you have to be able to supply 1000's of guns. Smith could never do that with the big frame revolvers. Also, revolvers are fragile. let it fall to pavement and the odds are high that you'll have bent the barrel or the cylinder crane. same for hitting someone over the head with it. If you open the cylinder, you can twist the cylinder/frame with your bare hands enough to not let the cylinder and crane go back into the frame, much less rotate properly. The revolver is full of openings for dust, sand, rain and snow to enter, and tight fit parts that jam solidly on debris. Lots of little crannies for crud to pile up and lock the gun solid. Ditto rust, of course. If you dont believe me, drop one into sand or limestone dust sometime, or even "just' in a granary full of soybeans. You'll have to use your off hand to help rotate the cylinder. It takes training, proper tools and a lot of patience to properly disassemble and reassemble a DA revolver. They burn the hell out of your body or your hand if you fire one from the retention position, have your hand in the wrong place, etc. Historically, probably some differences in jam & damage rates between service revolvers used by police over the years vs. soldiers under battlefield conditions, where you would have to look at WW1 and before to collect data. A question I would have would be: Over the years, was revolver jamming & breaking a problem for police? I do think that under most normal, real world conditions the revolver is generally viewed as being more reliable (stored in sock drawer vs buried in the shed...gulp). Under extreme conditions (crawling in dirt & mud) like a battlefield, I think what your talking about really comes into play. And hammer fired is usually more reliable than striker fired (Glocks lower tolerances helping them out).
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Post by howler on Oct 30, 2018 0:55:03 GMT
if you reduce the .41 to controlable levels, it hits no harder than a .45 ACP, so why pay more and lug around such a non concealable, heavy clunk? it gains you nothing and it handicaps you (a lot). The first thing magnum fans do is work up a .45 acp like "practice load", so that they dont beat up their gun in 2000 rds and spend 2x too much on ammo. I say that that's backwards. Get the .45, and for the 10 shots per year that you might fire at big game, use a lot handloaded .45 Super rd. I agree, as it would only make sense for someone in bear country who couldn't afford a second handgun, so they have rounds for both two & four legged critters. I think the 8 round .357 for revolver makes the most sense, purely for defensive use against humans, but if I lived in Alaska, ya gotta factor Grizz into any equation.
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Post by howler on Oct 30, 2018 1:15:40 GMT
recoil is mass times velocity. energy is mass times the SQUARE of velocity. the only way to increase shock and tissue destruction, and keep the load adequately controlable by the average person, especialy with one hand, from a lw, compact gun, is to have a very lw bullet and very high velocity. At impact speeds over mach II, 2200 fps, the temporary gas-cavity in the body IS capable of tearing/crushing fragile organ tissues that the bullet never actually touches. That's why hi-v rifle hits, with sp or hp bullets, show such devastation, lungs and heart scrambled with one hit, etc If platt had hit mirules in the shoulder, in his miami shootout vs 8 feds with his Mini-v14 and had had 60 gr softpoints, mirules would have been unable to shoot platt later. The wounding effect is just too grievous to let you function. A .22 hornet rifle, the old load going back nearly 100 years was a blunt, sphp 45 grs at 2650 fps. because it's so blunt and lw, the bullet slowed down very fast. at 100m, it's down to 2200 fps. yet, at that range, it will dump big dogs and coyotes on their butts, UNABLE to get back up again. A 4" barreled 9mm can drive a 45 gr bullet to 2200 fps quite safely, and pistol fights occur at 10m and less, with VERY rare exceptions (almost all being cop stuff) So you CAN have a lw, compact, easily controlable pistol that hits pretty damned hard. But the bullet can't be made of lead. It has to be solid aluminum, to keep the weight down and to not just fragment at impact, so that adequate penetration is assured. 10" of penetration, in animals, is all you want or need, as a civilian. You can't have both deep penetration, especially after hitting barriers and also have great shock and tissue destruction, in a load that doesn't recoil like a mof in a 20 oz, 6" gun. If you want all that, you'll have to load a solid swc bullet for every other shot. Since you can get 9mm hits twice as fast as you can snubby 357 hits (especially with full-charge 158 gr jhps, that wont expand from a 2" barrel, in flesh and blood). Jello tests dont mean diddly. Nobody in the gun and ammo industry claims that they DO, actually. The jello flows into and out of a jhp's nose cavity a LOT better than most body tissues. The lungs are the most likely hit on the chest, and they are just air sacks. It takes a LOT of velocity to expand a jhp when all it hits is lungs and skin. since you can get the hits twice as fast, HOW are you worse off with the very high v 9mm, vs the 357 snubby, hmm? you can easily have twice as many 9mm's in the gun, vs the 357 snub, too. 9mm ammo costs about half what 357 ammo costs, so which one are you going to practice with? full charge magnum ammo swiftly sends small revolvers back to the factory for repairs, 2000 rds or so is all it takes. You need to shoot at least twice that much every year. So you're either training with wussy loads, or you have to have 3 of such guns, one always at the factory being fixed, or you practice with a bigger, heavier gun and hope that the difference in handling wont matter in a fight. Yup, a .357 being shot out of a snubby (2" and under barrel) is basically a flash bang grenade going off in your hand at night. You will render yourself blind, deaf and dumb with a numb hand. I looked at ballistic charts using similar loads out of various length barrels and it was simply INCREDIBLE what an inch or two reduction (that's what she said ) did to performance. There is DEFITITELY an internal punch effect (to the nerve plexus) when bullet energy gets to around 500 foot pounds energy (small rounds going fast) that acts like a boxers punch to the solar plexus, rendering temporary incapacitation. The problem is...you simply cannot rely on it because some peoples pain and shock thresholds are different and unreliable. Get into high velocity rifle rounds like the .223 and stretch (temporary) cavities become crush (permanent) wound cavities. Imagine making a basketball sized hamburger vacuum where a persons chest was. With certain .223 hollow point or soft point rounds, you can get .44 magnum energy and DUMP IT ALL into a 14" human torso...so no wasting most of the energy in the wall behind the bad guy you shot, like with a regular 200+ grain .44 slug.
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Post by reynolds on Oct 30, 2018 3:26:22 GMT
maybe YOu are 14" from front to back, but the average person is 9" and as I said, you dont have to poke a hole thru an organ to ruin it. Poke a hole 1/2" deep in heart, lung,kidney, spleen liver, and that organ will not only suffer massive blood loss, it will cease to function. A hole in the wall of your chest collapes your lungs. ONE HUnDRED percent of the time, you can't trust blood loss or loss of chest- organ function to stop a man in less than 5 seconds. The mammalian brain ALWAYS has 5 second's worth of oxygenated blood in the cranium. If the heart has just pumped before the head is severed from the neck, the brain functions for up to 10 seconds. So you can forget about physical incapacitation from reliably stopping people in handgun combat. If you can't do it in a second flat, it aint waf. So, psych QUITTING, from shock and pain, is all we can hope for. Fortunately, if you administer ENOUGH of those, it stops people 90+% of the time. A basketball is WAY bigger than a 223 sps' temp cavity, bro. Softball, ok. basketball, no. And you dont have to destroy ALL of his vital organs to have the desired effect. People can hold their breath for up to 5 minutes. My brother only HAS one lung, due to surgery. Blood loss is ALWAYS too slow at handgun ranges (ie, 5m and less, for civilians.
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Post by reynolds on Oct 30, 2018 3:30:19 GMT
I knew Louie Seecamp, the guy who got the Ill state police to go to the M29 smith back in 1970. Out of 20 year's service with the ISP, as their armorer, main handgun instructor and as a private gunsmith, he saw many revolvers damaged by blows. I've seen several myself, as a part time smith for a few years. One cop brought me a M66 that had fallen from his rig in a foot chase. It struck the muzzle so hard that the barrel rotated on its threads, bending the barrel retaining pin. I polished out the ding on the muzzle, removed the pin, put the barrel back in place, straighted the pin, and replaced it. Then I shot a few groups with it to detemine that the muzzle did not require re-crowning. It saved me a few traffic tickets in my home town :-)
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Post by howler on Oct 30, 2018 4:42:22 GMT
maybe YOu are 14" from front to back, but the average person is 9" and as I said, you dont have to poke a hole thru an organ to ruin it. Poke a hole 1/2" deep in heart, lung,kidney, spleen liver, and that organ will not only suffer massive blood loss, it will cease to function. A hole in the wall of your chest collapes your lungs. ONE HUnDRED percent of the time, you can't trust blood loss or loss of chest- organ function to stop a man in less than 5 seconds. The mammalian brain ALWAYS has 5 second's worth of oxygenated blood in the cranium. If the heart has just pumped before the head is severed from the neck, the brain functions for up to 10 seconds. So you can forget about physical incapacitation from reliably stopping people in handgun combat. If you can't do it in a second flat, it aint waf. So, psych QUITTING, from shock and pain, is all we can hope for. Fortunately, if you administer ENOUGH of those, it stops people 90+% of the time. A basketball is WAY bigger than a 223 sps' temp cavity, bro. Softball, ok. basketball, no. And you dont have to destroy ALL of his vital organs to have the desired effect. People can hold their breath for up to 5 minutes. My brother only HAS one lung, due to surgery. Blood loss is ALWAYS too slow at handgun ranges (ie, 5m and less, for civilians. I'm a skinny mofo, but I was meaning that the .223 could probably only stop in 14" or so, and I agree with 9" probably getting to where you need to. The whole minimum/maximum penetration discussion is a varied one, fraught with different & changing variables. I don't want gross over penetration and sure as HELL don't want under penetration, so the answer is a bit deeper than a perfect frontal shot though light clothing at ballistic gel, meaning I'd probably want 12" over 10", and certainly 10" & 11" over 9". The old FBI requirements were frankly INSANE, where it DIDN'T COUNT AT ALL if a round was a hair under 12"...but was great if is was (don't remember exact figure) like 20 something inches or more...clear over penetration. If I knew I could hit a light clothed perp. clean in the front, less penetration and having more of the kinetic energy "frontloaded" in order to affect the organs and nervous plexi in the first half of the body, that would be best, but I want more penetration to make sure unforeseen variables (angles, clothing, etc...) are addressed. No exact answer, and I might want less penetration in Summer vs. Winter, and of course different people desire potentially different levels. The point is, one should give some serious consideration about what they require for their SD ammunition.
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 30, 2018 6:34:52 GMT
the reason we have not long ago seen such ammo being widely used is many-fold. Such rds are expensive. If and when I can offer such ammo, it's going to cost $3 per shot. That's nor so much for a revolver user, but for a guy with half a dozen double stack magazines, who wants to thoroughly test them all, it's a lot of money. The pressures would be quite high, so it would be best to offer such loads only in 357 Sig, 9x21mm, .38 Super PlusP and .40 short and weak, 10mm, and .45 Super, maybe 357 also, of course. Gun people are iron-bound traditionalists, ignorant and cheap, so it would be a hard sell. Another issue is such ammo easily pierces kevlar concealable vests. It's not illegal to have, but the cops would be very upset at such an ammo-maker (not that I'd gaf, you understand) A few states, like CA and IL, require a "lead core" in handgun bullets, but there's no size or weight requirements established for that lead core. So a letter, properly worded, to their states-attorneys, could get a ruling about it and then a lead #2 birdshot pellet can be swaged or epoxied into the hollowbase of the bullet, to make it legal to possess in those states. Since you know quite a bit on ballistics, have you seen the .22 TCM round from Armscor? It used to be my home defense gun (double stack 1911 style) that clocked in at 2100 FPS for a 40 grain JHP. Ballistic tests look really good, it gets fantastic penetration in bullet resistant vests, and (at least locally in the Philippines) is plentiful enough to actually practice with (at around 40 cents a round). I eventually switched out since I already have poor hearing for my age, and shooting it often would likely lead to more damage, but I might go back to it again with the 22 TCM 9R (sized to fit 9mm Glock/Tanfoglio magazines).
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Post by theophilus736 on Oct 30, 2018 7:21:54 GMT
the reason we have not long ago seen such ammo being widely used is many-fold. Such rds are expensive. If and when I can offer such ammo, it's going to cost $3 per shot. That's nor so much for a revolver user, but for a guy with half a dozen double stack magazines, who wants to thoroughly test them all, it's a lot of money. The pressures would be quite high, so it would be best to offer such loads only in 357 Sig, 9x21mm, .38 Super PlusP and .40 short and weak, 10mm, and .45 Super, maybe 357 also, of course. Gun people are iron-bound traditionalists, ignorant and cheap, so it would be a hard sell. Another issue is such ammo easily pierces kevlar concealable vests. It's not illegal to have, but the cops would be very upset at such an ammo-maker (not that I'd gaf, you understand) A few states, like CA and IL, require a "lead core" in handgun bullets, but there's no size or weight requirements established for that lead core. So a letter, properly worded, to their states-attorneys, could get a ruling about it and then a lead #2 birdshot pellet can be swaged or epoxied into the hollowbase of the bullet, to make it legal to possess in those states. Since you know quite a bit on ballistics, have you seen the .22 TCM round from Armscor? It used to be my home defense gun (double stack 1911 style) that clocked in at 2100 FPS for a 40 grain JHP. Ballistic tests look really good, it gets fantastic penetration in bullet resistant vests, and (at least locally in the Philippines) is plentiful enough to actually practice with (at around 40 cents a round). I eventually switched out since I already have poor hearing for my age, and shooting it often would likely lead to more damage, but I might go back to it again with the 22 TCM 9R (sized to fit 9mm Glock/Tanfoglio magazines). Do you not have access to hearing protection? Should be able to order online.
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 30, 2018 8:03:07 GMT
Since you know quite a bit on ballistics, have you seen the .22 TCM round from Armscor? It used to be my home defense gun (double stack 1911 style) that clocked in at 2100 FPS for a 40 grain JHP. Ballistic tests look really good, it gets fantastic penetration in bullet resistant vests, and (at least locally in the Philippines) is plentiful enough to actually practice with (at around 40 cents a round). I eventually switched out since I already have poor hearing for my age, and shooting it often would likely lead to more damage, but I might go back to it again with the 22 TCM 9R (sized to fit 9mm Glock/Tanfoglio magazines). Do you not have access to hearing protection? Should be able to order online. No I do, I wear them every time at the range. But the 22 TCM is a loud cartridge, and definitely registers far more than 45 ACP or 9mm, not to mention its flash. I haven't tried it in a low light environment but I imagine it would mess up my eyes and hearing if I fired it within the confines of the house, much more than a 45 or 9 would. That's problematic if I plan to fire multiple rounds.
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 30, 2018 8:48:33 GMT
A Model 29 Smith & Wesson with a 4-inch barrel weighs only a couple of ounces more than a full size .45 auto. It is a little more difficult to conceal but possible. I've owned both a .44 magnum and a .41 magnum and the difference between the two in blast and recoil was negligible. There have been reduced loads for both available for decades. Originally, the .41 had a so-called police load. This is not to say these would be your best choices to "lug around" but they're out there and still sell, just like .25 autos.
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Post by reynolds on Oct 30, 2018 15:33:06 GMT
it's not macho enough, you see, to use hearing protection in phills. I saw guys shooting an AR without ear pro near manila, under a pavilion, yet They were routinely missing a playing card at 25m, taking their time.:-) That's what combat means, 99% missing, especially beyond 25m, using cover, and helmets. I have muffs and plugs under them, paid $2 a shot to shoot a 5 shot group with it, standing, braced on a pole. I got a clover leaf, with 2 more shots touching, about 1/2" from the first 3, and they could't believe it. They had been discussing replacing the "shot-out" barrel. :-)
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Post by reynolds on Oct 30, 2018 15:37:03 GMT
A Model 29 Smith & Wesson with a 4-inch barrel weighs only a couple of ounces more than a full size .45 auto. It is a little more difficult to conceal but possible. I've owned both a .44 magnum and a .41 magnum and the difference between the two in blast and recoil was negligible. There have been reduced loads for both available for decades. Originally, the .41 had a so-called police load. This is not to say these would be your best choices to "lug around" but they're out there and still sell, just like .25 autos. A fully loaded 4" m29 weighs 48 ozs. The alloy comander, fully loaaded, weights 33 ozs, and whats more, I can get 6 hits per second with it, on the chest, at 5m. The first shot is not part of the timed event, so average repeat hit is .20 second. Put that .44 on a timer and you'll see .45 second repeat hits. You can't conceal it without a parka, either. .44 ammo is 60c a shot, when 9mm is 20c a shot (both in bulk, delivered to your door, 1000 rds) what's the point?
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Post by reynolds on Oct 30, 2018 15:47:26 GMT
I can handload the 9mm to greatly outperform the .22 TCM, actually. Better deal is get a spare barrel in 9x21mm www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/9X21-Brass/To get this level of performance requires specially made, lw, hollowbased bullets, made of solid aluminum rod on a lathe, but it offers 45 grs at 2300 fps in 4" barrels Once you got some tCM cases, I suppose, you could reload them with 223 bullets fairly cheaply, but that brass is expensive. With the 9x21, you simply install the regular 9mm barrel for practice. Bullet POI is drastically different, as in 6" difference at 25m, but I dont care. Nobody is reliably hitting 12" circles at 25m while they are being shot at. So I just leave the gun zeroed for the cast bullet practice ammo. 160 gr lrn at 800 fps. Enough to qualify for IPSC 'minor caliber" rating. If you push lead much faster than that in 9mm, you get barrel fouling and keyholing bullets. Yes, the aluminium fouls the bore, too, even with the lube-groove machined into it, but for the very few rds that you will ever shoot for your life, in anyone incident with a pistol, there's not enough fouling to matter any.
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 30, 2018 16:22:27 GMT
The .45 ACP is a good round and shouldn't require six hits to the chest, should it? It isn't such a great hunting round, either. But if you have lots of guns, then go for it. I'm happy with my .38 Super that I lug around in the woods. You don't need a parka to conceal an N-frame but you'll need more than a t-shirt. Of course, it's possible that Elmer Keith was misinformed about a lot of things.
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Post by reynolds on Oct 30, 2018 17:49:13 GMT
There's people who have kept coming after taking 6 357 jhp's to the torso, as many or more .45 jhp's to the toros. Some have kept their feet after a chest it, all pellets, 00 Buck blast or 12 ga slug, too. other than the spine, there's nothing in the torso which, when hit, causes immediate incapacitation. Even a spine hit can leave him able to shoot from the ground.
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Post by reynolds on Oct 30, 2018 17:53:26 GMT
Elmer never had to ccw anything. Elmer never so much as had a gun pointed at him, or pointed a gun at anyone. He was never a cop. read his books, instead of what people have said about him. He made no such claims. If you're wearing a jacket and nobody else is, it's cause you're carrying a gun. I've pointed a gun at men 8 times and had to show it to them a couple more times (holstered) I have had guns pointed at me 6x, too. I've carried concealed under a shirt, all day, every day, for 20 years. Elmer never fired a single jhp auto rd at a critter,and very few from a revolver. All of his stuff is pre 1960's, basically
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Post by howler on Oct 30, 2018 19:36:02 GMT
I'll take an 8 shot N frame smithy wheel gun over a regular sized .45 auto, but both have their pluses and minuses. Things get interesting with super compact concealable guns and high capacity semis. Best to have a collection because they all have their place.
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Post by reynolds on Oct 30, 2018 19:59:32 GMT
I've not missed having a revolver in the past 40 years. Different feeling, operating guns just 'un-do" the training that you've done with other types of guns. Jim Cirillo, of the NYPD stakeout unit, in the 60's, shot a dozen armed robbers by himself, and double teamed another half dozen with his partner. He shot a guy in the chest, about 7 ft away,with 00 Buck and a 14" Ithaca. He swore that he saw daylight thru the man! :-) The guy turned and RAN! Jim was so bedazzled by this that he at first tried to shoot the guy again, without having first pumped the 12 ga. He then worked the action, and shot the fleeing robber in the back, and the guy KEPT on running! Then Jim's partner hit the dude in the hip with a .38 lrn. He went down, outside of the glass door. Jim shot him AGAIN, with the 00, as the guy was on his hands and knees, still holding his nickelplated .32. The guy rolled over, got agian to his hands and knees, and said, "hey man, that's ENOUGH" and fell over dead. If Jim can mess up, when not being shot at, YOU can mess up worse, when you ARE being shot-at. So keep it simple and keep all the guns the same type.
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 30, 2018 21:15:25 GMT
Well, I sure miss some of the revolvers I've owned over the years but not because they were better than automatics, just because they were interesting in and of themselves. Possibly the most interesting and maybe the best was a Registered .357 S&W Magnum. Unfortunately, it had a ruined finish on the barrel. I've had some interesting autos, too, starting with the first one I ever owned. Of the more modern handguns, one of the more interesting was a S&W Model 39 with all the papers and tags from a store that used to be in Tyson's Corner Mall. One of my favorites was a Star Model BKM, which I can't saw was quite up to Colt quality but it had its good points. A close second was a Colt lightweight Commander. One of my favorite revolvers was a S&W Model 65 Ladysmith. That was from when they were coming out with a new variation every month or so.
I could say I miss them all. Especially the Ruger No. 1. And then there was the.....
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Post by howler on Oct 30, 2018 21:47:04 GMT
I've not missed having a revolver in the past 40 years. Different feeling, operating guns just 'un-do" the training that you've done with other types of guns. Jim Cirillo, of the NYPD stakeout unit, in the 60's, shot a dozen armed robbers by himself, and double teamed another half dozen with his partner. He shot a guy in the chest, about 7 ft away,with 00 Buck and a 14" Ithaca. He swore that he saw daylight thru the man! :-) The guy turned and RAN! Jim was so bedazzled by this that he at first tried to shoot the guy again, without having first pumped the 12 ga. He then worked the action, and shot the fleeing robber in the back, and the guy KEPT on running! Then Jim's partner hit the dude in the hip with a .38 lrn. He went down, outside of the glass door. Jim shot him AGAIN, with the 00, as the guy was on his hands and knees, still holding his nickelplated .32. The guy rolled over, got agian to his hands and knees, and said, "hey man, that's ENOUGH" and fell over dead. If Jim can mess up, when not being shot at, YOU can mess up worse, when you ARE being shot-at. So keep it simple and keep all the guns the same type. Talk about Michael Myers of Halloween...sounds like that dude wouldn't go down with a direct hit from an RPG! I'd love to see what pharmacological cocktail (PCP, LSD, meth, coke, etc...) he had in his system. You can only really do your best regarding weapons selection and pick the best generally considered options. Don't pick a .25acp or .22short handgun for your home defense firearm, for instance. It is certainly much better to be proficient with few than deficient with many. Revolvers (or so I've been told) are generally easier for the novice to both use and maintain. Keep it in a sock drawer for a decade, pull out, pull the trigger...and it there is a dud...pull the trigger again (misfire/rerack drill with a semi under fire...good luck with that).
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