tonystark
Member
“I told you, I don’t want to join your super secret boy band!”
Posts: 816
|
Post by tonystark on Oct 29, 2018 4:26:38 GMT
As much as I love my P320 I have to say (modularity aside) the 509 tops it hands down. The P320 is definitely easier for most people to conceal carry, but being 6ft tall gives me the ability to conceal what most people call “duty guns.” I’ve carried both Glock 20, 21, CZ P09 concealed for months, and when I’ve told guys I wasn’t carrying a Glock 19 they automatically assume I had a Glock 26 concealed. So my opinions on CCW guns aren’t always popular, or even possible, for a lot of gun owners 😕 The G19 MOS is one I’d recommend for someone looking to equip/carry something with an RMR, at least to start. I know a guy who has an H&K VP9 with a Trijicon RMR and it’s a pretty B.A combo! I think even with the extra $200 in MOD’s on the MAPP FS you STILL got an awesome deal!! You have no idea how many deals I come across, after you and I talk on here, and it’ll literally be something we were *just* talking about, and I wish I could transfer these guns to you! After you and I were talking about you wanting a Shield in .45 I saw a brand new one, with night sights and 4 magazines for $425. Then you and I were talking about the Kimber micro 9’s, sure enough I saw a killer deal not 2 days later. SO infuriating! LOL Oh and how funny is it that right as we were talking about the LCR in 9mm Paul Harrell releases two videos on exactly that?? My suspicions are correct, he’s a wizard!! 😆 I think we all just watch the same videos and read the same things hahaha! I’m now looking at more DA/SA options, checking the size differences between the new XDE, the Rami, the Px4 subcompact, CZ P07 - mostly to see which I one can likely carry in which clothing configuration (suits, barong, and tshirts). Great minds think alike! I know you were concerned about safety and carrying concealed, especially if your kiddos are around like my daughter is. As you’ve said so aptly before, the DA/SA are your safest bet, but again what you carry is so dependent on your attire or destination for the day. I can pretty much say with certainty that each of those you listed will be excellent choices, all but the XDE. I’ve been watching reviews on both the 9mm and the .45, and unfortunately I’ve seen both “good” and “bad” reviews in equal numbers! Time will tell I guess.....
|
|
|
Post by Croccifixio on Oct 29, 2018 4:46:47 GMT
Haven't watched the bad reviews of the XDE. Maybe I should forgo that then.
I had an incident with my autistic daughter the other day. My 380 was in my bag at the time, and while she knew that she shouldn't tinker with it, we were also in a halloween party and she had eaten a few (not really a few...) sweets and was a bit hyperactive. So she ran into me excitedly and bumped her head in the steel frame inside my bag. Got a bump for her trouble. After I made sure she was iced, I check the firearm (that was in a thin, leather holster) and decided then and there to have a custom kydex holster made for the gun. I could imagine something like that disengaging the safety leaving me with a cocked 1911 in condition 0 with its 3 lb trigger.
I really hate our laws now on concealed carry. Seriously considering just straight up ignoring it or going and sticking with AIWB (which I prefer, though I absolutely cannot get caught carrying) or just trying my best to comply with an uncertain belt-bag carry.
|
|
|
Post by reynolds on Oct 29, 2018 6:30:08 GMT
to me, a 9mm is a round for a pocket gun. If I'm going to lug-around a belt-gun, it's going to offer at least double the amount of power that a 9mm can dispose of. The Commander, 7.8" long, 28 ozs, is 460 rowland, which offers 70 grs at 2300 fps, AP, 800 ft lbs of power, and less recoil than .45 ACP ball ammo. When that hollowpointed,solid aluminum hollowbased (split-nearly-in-half-lengthwise) bullet hits at such velocity, it breaks in half at impact, and the hard, sharp-cornered, unstable,full-length segments yaw and sometimes tumble as they diverge and penetrate. All vital organ tissue that is "caught" between the 2 permanent wound cavities is destroyed by the temporary gas cavity. So the effect is the same as shooting the guy with softpoints in an M4. In other words, odds are about 25 to one that a single torso hit is going to thoroughly mess him up, and if the hit is to the chest, it's 50 to 1 odds. Even "mere" limb hits without hitting bone, with such a shocking, destructive loads are 10 to one odds that he'll be disabled too badly to be a threat anymore.
|
|
|
Post by reynolds on Oct 29, 2018 6:34:15 GMT
can my Filipina spouse (here in US) take her pistol with her to Phills and get it licensed there? can she get set up to cast bullets and reload ammo there? can she bring that gear with her when we move to Phills?
|
|
|
Post by Croccifixio on Oct 29, 2018 8:16:25 GMT
can my Filipina spouse (here in US) take her pistol with her to Phills and get it licensed there? can she get set up to cast bullets and reload ammo there? can she bring that gear with her when we move to Phills? Technically yes, but it's more trouble than it's worth. I quote: She will basically have to declare it and have it sit in the Firearms and Explosives Office (FEO) of the Philippine National Police for processing. In the mean time she'll apply for a domestic firearm license (like the one I have) which takes quite some time to accomplish - you'll need several national agency clearances, proof of income, a slew of tests (drug and neurological), and other minor requirements. And it will all hinge on the Chief of the FEO giving it the time of day (which is hard work - something they aren't notorious for). I'm sure you could push that time up with some grease money, but that would cost you a pretty penny. As for reloading ammo, that's out of the picture. Reloading equipment have more requirements and licenses and minimum capitalization. Essentially, you can only realistically reload if you make it a full-fledged business. The exception would be gun clubs and sports shooters, who still need special police permission. So yes she could do it, but it's far more trouble than it's worth. If you want to shoot often with reloads, you're better served by joining a gun club, since they often charge very little for reloads (a full metal jacket 45 ACP reload in my gun club is 20 cents, for instance, and a teflon coated lead reload is a little less). If you want to bring guns in the country, you can but be prepared to spend quite some time waiting for its release/approval. So if the stay is only for a few years, never mind, just join a gun club. But if the stay is permanent, apply for the domestic license and buy locally or from importers - you'll save time and money.
|
|
|
Post by bluetrain on Oct 29, 2018 9:16:55 GMT
Colt! Beware of imitations and patent infringements.
I know of one for sale now (or was a few days ago) but it was in .40, not something I want. The first new gun I ever bought, around 1969 or 1970, was a Browning Hi-Power. It was just about $100 and I had a lot of trouble coming up with the money for it. I later bought an H&R .45-70 at the same shop. It was even more expensive. The first gun I ever bought was a Mauser C-96, around 1965, when I was living in Germany.
Glocks have their good points but they've become expensive.
|
|
|
Post by theophilus736 on Oct 29, 2018 13:27:42 GMT
Colt! Beware of imitations and patent infringements. I know of one for sale now (or was a few days ago) but it was in .40, not something I want. The first new gun I ever bought, around 1969 or 1970, was a Browning Hi-Power. It was just about $100 and I had a lot of trouble coming up with the money for it. I later bought an H&R .45-70 at the same shop. It was even more expensive. The first gun I ever bought was a Mauser C-96, around 1965, when I was living in Germany. Glocks have their good points but they've become expensive. $100 hi power.... ugh. If only. The days of cheap guns are gone.
|
|
|
Post by bluetrain on Oct 29, 2018 16:04:54 GMT
Money wasn't exactly lying around on the ground then. But there are still good guns that are less expensive, especially used guns that aren't as popular as they once were, like S&W Model 10's.
Ammunition is relatively less expensive than it was. In 1970, a box of 9mm was around $5.00, but the selection was limited. There seemed to be as many imported firearms as there are now, too. There seemed to be more surplus firearms but those things seem to come in waves, with different ones available in different periods. M1 rifles had not yet hit the surplus market and in fact, they were still in use in the National Guard then. There were no Soviet arms available yet, either. There were .45 autos in the surplus market but it was only later that they became as popular as they are now. Incredibly, Luger pistols were still in service in a few armies then, some hanging around long enough to be replaced by Glocks.
|
|
|
Post by theophilus736 on Oct 29, 2018 18:16:58 GMT
Money wasn't exactly lying around on the ground then. But there are still good guns that are less expensive, especially used guns that aren't as popular as they once were, like S&W Model 10's. Ammunition is relatively less expensive than it was. In 1970, a box of 9mm was around $5.00, but the selection was limited. There seemed to be as many imported firearms as there are now, too. There seemed to be more surplus firearms but those things seem to come in waves, with different ones available in different periods. M1 rifles had not yet hit the surplus market and in fact, they were still in use in the National Guard then. There were no Soviet arms available yet, either. There were .45 autos in the surplus market but it was only later that they became as popular as they are now. Incredibly, Luger pistols were still in service in a few armies then, some hanging around long enough to be replaced by Glocks. Sure, but within the time frame where imports from commbloc nations started, we've gone from $100 Chinese aks to $1000, and $80 mosins to $300 mosins. Some pistols are still under $250, but they used to be $75. All of these prices were before I got into learning about and buying firearms, so I lament the good old days I was never around for.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Oct 29, 2018 19:14:08 GMT
to me, a 9mm is a round for a pocket gun. If I'm going to lug-around a belt-gun, it's going to offer at least double the amount of power that a 9mm can dispose of. The Commander, 7.8" long, 28 ozs, is 460 rowland, which offers 70 grs at 2300 fps, AP, 800 ft lbs of power, and less recoil than .45 ACP ball ammo. When that hollowpointed,solid aluminum hollowbased (split-nearly-in-half-lengthwise) bullet hits at such velocity, it breaks in half at impact, and the hard, sharp-cornered, unstable,full-length segments yaw and sometimes tumble as they diverge and penetrate. All vital organ tissue that is "caught" between the 2 permanent wound cavities is destroyed by the temporary gas cavity. So the effect is the same as shooting the guy with softpoints in an M4. In other words, odds are about 25 to one that a single torso hit is going to thoroughly mess him up, and if the hit is to the chest, it's 50 to 1 odds. Even "mere" limb hits without hitting bone, with such a shocking, destructive loads are 10 to one odds that he'll be disabled too badly to be a threat anymore. If that round does all that damage and gets 10"-14" of penetration through heavy clothing...sign me up.
|
|
|
Post by reynolds on Oct 29, 2018 19:30:01 GMT
it requires a fully supported barrel. 460 brass and a deepened chamber in a spare barrel. You can shorten the brass by .060" and use it in regular .45 ACP chambers, for 150 fps less velocity. you lose about 100 ft lbs of power. The bullets have to be made yourself, on a $600 China mini-lathe from Harbor freight tools, or by chucking up short pcs of 1/2" OD aluminum rod in a 1/2" drill, locking the trigger of the drill, clamping the drill in a vise, and holding a HF handheld grinder and then a file on the spinning rod, using a caliper and then a micrometer to get the rod turned to the size and shape you want, hp and hollowbase it., and then use a little Exacto saw to cut it almost in half (from front and rear). To make a 60 gr .45 bullet, use a propane torch to melt the lead out of ball ammo. Replace the lead with epoxy. You'll have to use so much Alliant Bullseye powder that you can't believe it, just to get the slide to cycle. Work up 1/2 gr at a time, looking for bent case rimes, extractor or ejector tears/dents in the cases/rims. Watch for distorted, blackened, protruding primers. Testfire with the magazine out of the gun, using heavy welder's gloves, while 'hugging" a tree. :-) Chronograph each shot with a $100 Shooting Chrony "re-furbished" chronograph. If you add powder and there's no velocity increase, back off 1/2 gr, you're at the max. Mike each case at the web, using the same R-P cases, from the same box of fired ammo. If any of them show more expansion than plus P 185 gr jhp Remingtion .45 ammo, stop, no more powder with that bullet in that gun. Understand? You'll exceed 2000 fps easily, tho. with 60-70 gr bullets. No other powder will even work the slide. Only BE is part nitroglycerin. Dont try this without a fully supported barrel, or you'll regret it. The case will burst at the feed ramp, blow pieces of the stock panels into your hands, and burn the hell out of your palm and fingers.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Oct 29, 2018 21:10:54 GMT
it requires a fully supported barrel. 460 brass and a deepened chamber in a spare barrel. You can shorten the brass by .060" and use it in regular .45 ACP chambers, for 150 fps less velocity. you lose about 100 ft lbs of power. The bullets have to be made yourself, on a $600 China mini-lathe from Harbor freight tools, or by chucking up short pcs of 1/2" OD aluminum rod in a 1/2" drill, locking the trigger of the drill, clamping the drill in a vise, and holding a HF handheld grinder and then a file on the spinning rod, using a caliper and then a micrometer to get the rod turned to the size and shape you want, hp and hollowbase it., and then use a little Exacto saw to cut it almost in half (from front and rear). To make a 60 gr .45 bullet, use a propane torch to melt the lead out of ball ammo. Replace the lead with epoxy. You'll have to use so much Alliant Bullseye powder that you can't believe it, just to get the slide to cycle. Work up 1/2 gr at a time, looking for bent case rimes, extractor or ejector tears/dents in the cases/rims. Watch for distorted, blackened, protruding primers. Testfire with the magazine out of the gun, using heavy welder's gloves, while 'hugging" a tree. :-) Chronograph each shot with a $100 Shooting Chrony "re-furbished" chronograph. If you add powder and there's no velocity increase, back off 1/2 gr, you're at the max. Mike each case at the web, using the same R-P cases, from the same box of fired ammo. If any of them show more expansion than plus P 185 gr jhp Remingtion .45 ammo, stop, no more powder with that bullet in that gun. Understand? You'll exceed 2000 fps easily, tho. with 60-70 gr bullets. No other powder will even work the slide. Only BE is part nitroglycerin. Dont try this without a fully supported barrel, or you'll regret it. The case will burst at the feed ramp, blow pieces of the stock panels into your hands, and burn the hell out of your palm and fingers. You sound quite knowledgeable on this stuff...as ballistics is doctorate level subject matter touching on multiple areas & disciplines. I'd probably just blow my freaking self up in the attempt . Adequate penetration through clothing (around 12"), expansion, energy transfer (punch to nerve plexus for temporary incapacitation), in a controllable platform are what I seek. Breathtaking advancements in round technology these last few decades regarding expansion through various medium. Used to be state troopers using the .357 magnum 125gr. round in the 70's out of their 4"-6" service revolvers who stumbled onto something with faster incapacitation out of handguns. An interesting topic for sure.
|
|
|
Post by bluetrain on Oct 29, 2018 22:45:01 GMT
Once upon a time, a .41 magnum was seen to be the ultimate police sidearm. Wonder why they don't all carry one? Any S&W N-frame makes a good carry gun.
Those prices for cheap SKS and Mosin Nagant rifles and Makarov pistols reflected the fact that there were a lot available. But even those eventually all get sold and so the prices go up. Mausers bolt-action army rifles, Mosin Nagant's, Lee-Enfield's, MAS bolt-actions, Arisaka's, and Swiss K31 rifles haven't been manufactured for decades. Of all those, I think the Lee-Enfield's stayed in production the longest, counting Indian manufacture. Likewise Webley revolvers, Lugers, genuine US Army M1911s, M1 rifles, '03 Springfield's, P38s, and so on. The supply is always limited and in fact, in wartime when they're still being manufactured, they're in short supply.
|
|
|
Post by reynolds on Oct 29, 2018 22:55:58 GMT
the 41 in full charge mode is WAY too hard to control in rapidfire. Repeat hit times are twice as slow as almost anyone can manage with a 9mm that cocks itself after each shot. Misses are commonplace in combat, and so are poor hits. So is having more than one attacker. many cops prefer not to have to buy a separate ccw gun for off duty. They want the same gun and load for off duty and on duty. The .41 can't manage that. the swc .41 load was nothing special as to its stopping power, and the gun stays huge, heavy, expensive. If you want to equip an entire police dept with one gun, you have to be able to supply 1000's of guns. Smith could never do that with the big frame revolvers. Also, revolvers are fragile. let it fall to pavement and the odds are high that you'll have bent the barrel or the cylinder crane. same for hitting someone over the head with it. If you open the cylinder, you can twist the cylinder/frame with your bare hands enough to not let the cylinder and crane go back into the frame, much less rotate properly. The revolver is full of openings for dust, sand, rain and snow to enter, and tight fit parts that jam solidly on debris. Lots of little crannies for crud to pile up and lock the gun solid. Ditto rust, of course. If you dont believe me, drop one into sand or limestone dust sometime, or even "just' in a granary full of soybeans. You'll have to use your off hand to help rotate the cylinder. It takes training, proper tools and a lot of patience to properly disassemble and reassemble a DA revolver. They burn the hell out of your body or your hand if you fire one from the retention position, have your hand in the wrong place, etc.
|
|
|
Post by reynolds on Oct 29, 2018 22:59:35 GMT
The K frames proved unable to withstand more than 2000 rds of full charge 357 ammo, before the forcing cones split, frames were flame-cut above the forcing cone,, etc. So smith stopped making them and came out with the L frame, which is pretty damned huge and heavy. Very few people would rather carry a 40 oz gun, 70 hours a week, than a 20 oz gun. They want more than 6 rds and a fumble-prone, 6 second reload, too. Check youtube for the FBI miami dade shootout with Platt in 1988. One guy got shot thru the hand, then was trying to reload his revolver and got shot again. several of the 8 feds emptied their guns without effect, including 14 rd 9mm's, at just 5 lousy yds.
|
|
|
Post by reynolds on Oct 29, 2018 23:03:28 GMT
back when Glasers were LE only ammo, the 9mm was 87 grs at 1850 fps! The SAAMI specs for 9mm are nearly as weak as for the .38 special. 700 ft lbs from a 9mm. Cannon made his clients sign a waiver of responsibility if their guns blew up. :_) he killed himself, ;got cancer, shot himself with a 380 glaser to the heart, to demonstrate his faith in his product. His son took the ammo public, watered it down to SAAMI specs (74 grs at 1450 fp), rendering it worthless. it's $3 a shot, so without the 1" wide, 5" deep wounding of the original loads, nobody buys it.
|
|
|
Post by reynolds on Oct 29, 2018 23:50:50 GMT
recoil is mass times velocity. energy is mass times the SQUARE of velocity. the only way to increase shock and tissue destruction, and keep the load adequately controlable by the average person, especialy with one hand, from a lw, compact gun, is to have a very lw bullet and very high velocity. At impact speeds over mach II, 2200 fps, the temporary gas-cavity in the body IS capable of tearing/crushing fragile organ tissues that the bullet never actually touches. That's why hi-v rifle hits, with sp or hp bullets, show such devastation, lungs and heart scrambled with one hit, etc If platt had hit mirules in the shoulder, in his miami shootout vs 8 feds with his Mini-v14 and had had 60 gr softpoints, mirules would have been unable to shoot platt later. The wounding effect is just too grievous to let you function.
A .22 hornet rifle, the old load going back nearly 100 years was a blunt, sphp 45 grs at 2650 fps. because it's so blunt and lw, the bullet slowed down very fast. at 100m, it's down to 2200 fps. yet, at that range, it will dump big dogs and coyotes on their butts, UNABLE to get back up again. A 4" barreled 9mm can drive a 45 gr bullet to 2200 fps quite safely, and pistol fights occur at 10m and less, with VERY rare exceptions (almost all being cop stuff) So you CAN have a lw, compact, easily controlable pistol that hits pretty damned hard. But the bullet can't be made of lead. It has to be solid aluminum, to keep the weight down and to not just fragment at impact, so that adequate penetration is assured. 10" of penetration, in animals, is all you want or need, as a civilian. You can't have both deep penetration, especially after hitting barriers and also have great shock and tissue destruction, in a load that doesn't recoil like a mof in a 20 oz, 6" gun. If you want all that, you'll have to load a solid swc bullet for every other shot. Since you can get 9mm hits twice as fast as you can snubby 357 hits (especially with full-charge 158 gr jhps, that wont expand from a 2" barrel, in flesh and blood). Jello tests dont mean diddly. Nobody in the gun and ammo industry claims that they DO, actually. The jello flows into and out of a jhp's nose cavity a LOT better than most body tissues. The lungs are the most likely hit on the chest, and they are just air sacks. It takes a LOT of velocity to expand a jhp when all it hits is lungs and skin. since you can get the hits twice as fast, HOW are you worse off with the very high v 9mm, vs the 357 snubby, hmm? you can easily have twice as many 9mm's in the gun, vs the 357 snub, too. 9mm ammo costs about half what 357 ammo costs, so which one are you going to practice with? full charge magnum ammo swiftly sends small revolvers back to the factory for repairs, 2000 rds or so is all it takes. You need to shoot at least twice that much every year. So you're either training with wussy loads, or you have to have 3 of such guns, one always at the factory being fixed, or you practice with a bigger, heavier gun and hope that the difference in handling wont matter in a fight.
|
|
|
Post by reynolds on Oct 30, 2018 0:19:24 GMT
the reason we have not long ago seen such ammo being widely used is many-fold. Such rds are expensive. If and when I can offer such ammo, it's going to cost $3 per shot. That's nor so much for a revolver user, but for a guy with half a dozen double stack magazines, who wants to thoroughly test them all, it's a lot of money. The pressures would be quite high, so it would be best to offer such loads only in 357 Sig, 9x21mm, .38 Super PlusP and .40 short and weak, 10mm, and .45 Super, maybe 357 also, of course. Gun people are iron-bound traditionalists, ignorant and cheap, so it would be a hard sell. Another issue is such ammo easily pierces kevlar concealable vests. It's not illegal to have, but the cops would be very upset at such an ammo-maker (not that I'd gaf, you understand) A few states, like CA and IL, require a "lead core" in handgun bullets, but there's no size or weight requirements established for that lead core. So a letter, properly worded, to their states-attorneys, could get a ruling about it and then a lead #2 birdshot pellet can be swaged or epoxied into the hollowbase of the bullet, to make it legal to possess in those states.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Oct 30, 2018 0:26:26 GMT
Once upon a time, a .41 magnum was seen to be the ultimate police sidearm. Wonder why they don't all carry one? Any S&W N-frame makes a good carry gun. Those prices for cheap SKS and Mosin Nagant rifles and Makarov pistols reflected the fact that there were a lot available. But even those eventually all get sold and so the prices go up. Mausers bolt-action army rifles, Mosin Nagant's, Lee-Enfield's, MAS bolt-actions, Arisaka's, and Swiss K31 rifles haven't been manufactured for decades. Of all those, I think the Lee-Enfield's stayed in production the longest, counting Indian manufacture. Likewise Webley revolvers, Lugers, genuine US Army M1911s, M1 rifles, '03 Springfield's, P38s, and so on. The supply is always limited and in fact, in wartime when they're still being manufactured, they're in short supply. The .41 rivals the .44 for power and is a real flat shooter (or so I've heard). Probably have to (like the .44) use reduced loads in order to use against humans.
|
|
|
Post by reynolds on Oct 30, 2018 0:32:48 GMT
if you reduce the .41 to controlable levels, it hits no harder than a .45 ACP, so why pay more and lug around such a non concealable, heavy clunk? it gains you nothing and it handicaps you (a lot). The first thing magnum fans do is work up a .45 acp like "practice load", so that they dont beat up their gun in 2000 rds and spend 2x too much on ammo. I say that that's backwards. Get the .45, and for the 10 shots per year that you might fire at big game, use a lot handloaded .45 Super rd.
|
|