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Post by Turok on Oct 7, 2018 12:59:48 GMT
Hey everyone! I need help identifying the sword that Fremont is holding in this photo. I think it's an 1850 Staff and Field Officers saber but the photo was apparently taken in 1862.
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Post by nerdthenord on Oct 7, 2018 14:18:49 GMT
Big guess here. M1860 US Naval Cutlass? That hilt throws it off. Most US army sabers have a much more open hilt construction than that cutlass looking guard.
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Post by nerdthenord on Oct 7, 2018 14:20:14 GMT
Wait. You may be right with your guess. The M1860 Saber was only put into use in 1862 thanks to the civil war disrupting manufacturing, so if this is early 1862 he may very well have been using an older sword in official pictures.
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 7, 2018 15:32:12 GMT
Interesting question. It doesn't look to me like any issue U.S. sword or saber. Nor does it look like a (fancy or ornate) presentation sword, of which Fremont had at least one and which still exists. Could be British, possibly heavy cavalry sword. Imported swords were used in the Civil War, presumably on both sides.
There is a poorly reproduced photo of Fremont with Kit Carson and Carson is holding a very similar sword. But it's difficult to be sure if it's the sword guard or his coat cuff that you see in the photo. But it doesn't look like a regulation cavalry or staff officer's sword. But it could be!
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 7, 2018 15:34:45 GMT
I am not sure of what sword he is holding but because the photo was taken in 1862 by no means rule out a M1850 Staff and Field Officer sabre.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Oct 7, 2018 16:06:02 GMT
Hey everyone! I need help identifying the sword that Fremont is holding in this photo. I think it's an 1850 Staff and Field Officers saber but the photo was apparently taken in 1862.
That isn't a very helpful sword angle to provide assistance. However, the civil war alternative to the standard french styled field and staff sword was a special plate modified British M1827 infantry officers sabre. The plate does seem to have a thumb "roll" rather than the french quillon. That would indicate a British or Austrian styled sword. Best for now.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Oct 7, 2018 16:36:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2018 19:10:34 GMT
Dave Kelly is on the right track here, an acanthus/scroll hilt. Those hangers are for mounted use. The Kit Carson picture as well shows a near closed half basket. Johnathan Hopkins shows both an engineer's sabre and an 1821 heavy cavalry acanthus on page 2 of this thread. myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=22276He would be a major general at the time of the photo but the two photos mentioned thus far lend to it being the older sword. There is another with his fancy silver hilted presentation sword and no doubt he may have had more than those two.
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 7, 2018 20:14:19 GMT
Another thing that you can't really tell from the photo is whether it is curved or straight. But it could easily be slightly curved. It looks like a longish blade, too. It is also entirely possible that it isn't his own sword but a studio prop, except that it looks like the same photo in the other photo with Kit Carson. It's more likely that it is his sword just the same.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2018 20:33:00 GMT
Slightly curved. I'm not sure if you are viewing on a phone but even on a monitor, not always easy to determine. Long, like say an English 1821 officer's cavalry sword but we don't know how tall he was (off the top of my head). As he spent most of his career riding on horses, the slings/hangers suit that. No sash but I'd love to see detail of the buckle.
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Post by Turok on Oct 7, 2018 22:06:12 GMT
Thank you all for the help! He may very well be posing with a studio prop. I haven't seen any other photo with him carrying this particular sword. Dave Kelly might be correct and I compeletely forgot that foreign made swords were used by both sides during the Civil War.
Fremont was French and was a very flamboyant man so he probably just wanted to show off with a European made weapon.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Oct 7, 2018 23:33:15 GMT
Thank you all for the help! He may very well be posing with a studio prop. I haven't seen any other photo with him carrying this particular sword. Dave Kelly might be correct and I compeletely forgot that foreign made swords were used by both sides during the Civil War. Fremont was French and was a very flamboyant man so he probably just wanted to show off with a European made weapon.Beat me to the point about studio prop swords. Bigger studios did that. Flamboyance played a part in senior uniforms. MG Marsenna Patrick, the AoP Provost Marshal had his portrait taken with his staff. I think he was wearing a Belgian LC Officers sabre. Patrick is seated and this sabre is all over him. LOL.
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