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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Sept 7, 2018 16:29:14 GMT
A friend and I were discussing bastard and greatsword design, and we both wondered if any ever had basket hilts.
Do these exist historically? If not, why?
Food for thought...
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Post by Cosmoline on Sept 7, 2018 17:06:03 GMT
Longswords and greatswords did start to have more complex hilts into the late 15th and 16th. I don't think a full basket hilt would work very well with two hands. It would have to be very big and open, and would likely start interfering with movement.There were some with a steel overlay for the right hand only. It wasn't a complete enclosure though and it was expressly for blades that could be used one handed.
Aside from the practical difficulties, a full size longsword or greatsword functions as both sword and shield already. You don't need an encasing hilt to replace the shield or buckler because you have the extra length.
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Post by MOK on Sept 8, 2018 18:52:19 GMT
They're rare, but various forms of basket-hilted longswords and bastard sabers do exist. Most of them - e.g. German longswords of the type linked by Cosmoline above, "Swiss sabers", many Indian khanda - have a half-length basket that only covers the forward half of the grip, the part that would be employed when used in one hand, but there are also some Swiss sabers with a full-length basket, like this famous beauty. I can't recall ever seeing or reading about a dedicated two-hander with a basket hilt, though.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Sept 9, 2018 20:43:32 GMT
Great picture by the way... I ask, as I've seen some SCA folks that have made big junk basket hilts for bastard and greatswords out of what looked like old football or motorcycle helmets. While it looks weird, it really made me think...then the discussion started...and here we are.Plus the users seemed to not have any issues with function. But I know SCA combat does not reflect how the weapons were used historically. It does make you think....
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Mar 20, 2019 19:39:14 GMT
Indian Khanda...wow odd sword. Watched the forged in fire with that as one of the challenges. Seeing so many things I lurk on point at India...means I obviously need to do more research on the history etc. Wow is my knowledge base narrow.
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 20, 2019 20:21:15 GMT
Indian swords are crazy. Most people who think they know about Indian swords know about tulwars, maybe katar. There's also khanda, pata, firanghi, and others.
Then there's everything from the surrounding areas and the Arab world...
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Mar 21, 2019 19:46:12 GMT
Yes...this is a case of...I thought I knew stuff, and discovered how much I really DON'T know...
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christain
Member
It's the steel on the inside that counts.
Posts: 2,835
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Post by christain on Mar 21, 2019 20:48:55 GMT
I find the diverse types of Indian and Asian weapons, and the variations thereof, to be very interesting. Also African weapons...some really unique stuff there. Ever see the 'Forged in Fire' episode where they made an African 'Hunga-Munga'? Wow...I mean, just...WOW.
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 22, 2019 0:25:14 GMT
One of the most disappointing things about the modern sword world (reproductions, knowledge base) is that it's still not much bigger or more varied than it was 20+ years ago.
Katana have only recently started to lose market share to the various European typologies, as people have become more familiar with them. Chinese swords had a brief surge in popularity a few years back, but I've not heard much about them since. There are two or three major brands in Filipino weapons, but that's still a pretty small niche. Likewise Korean swords.
Then there's the rest of the world.
Even just to generalize by continent, "African weapons" is an enormous category. Particularly if debating how much of "Africa" actually gets filed under "the Arab world" which then leads to "Indo-Persia" et cetera.
Sure, there are two "scimitar" or "shamshir" on the market, presumably made in the same place and given different brands, and a tulwar...but that's pretty much it. At least, from known, reputable brands. Nobody's going to put out a replica flyssa. Very few would buy it. I'm surprised there aren't more katar or pata on the market, though...
Scratching the surface just ever so slightly with just a few I know I would like to see....
It's a big ol' world-o'-swords.
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admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2,088
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Post by admin on Mar 22, 2019 4:34:14 GMT
One of the most disappointing things about the modern sword world (reproductions, knowledge base) is that it's still not much bigger or more varied than it was 20+ years ago. Katana have only recently started to lose market share to the various European typologies, as people have become more familiar with them. Chinese swords had a brief surge in popularity a few years back, but I've not heard much about them since. There are two or three major brands in Filipino weapons, but that's still a pretty small niche. Likewise Korean swords. Then there's the rest of the world. Even just to generalize by continent, "African weapons" is an enormous category. Particularly if debating how much of "Africa" actually gets filed under "the Arab world" which then leads to "Indo-Persia" et cetera. Sure, there are two "scimitar" or "shamshir" on the market, presumably made in the same place and given different brands, and a tulwar...but that's pretty much it. At least, from known, reputable brands. Nobody's going to put out a replica flyssa. Very few would buy it. I'm surprised there aren't more katar or pata on the market, though... Scratching the surface just ever so slightly with just a few I know I would like to see.... It's a big ol' world-o'-swords. The issue is it is a HUGE risk to make any sword that is not a proven seller.. The investment costs to make original fittings usually involves 5 figure sums and few sword makers have enough money to invest in something a bit out there..
Heck, I am licking my wounds after attempting the Seraph Aegis and the Hobgoblin Jintachi - both now need to be wound up and sold below cost..
I've seen it happen many times before, only way to get something like this made is to go custom. Only way anything will ever change is if some company decides to come along and make some historically accurate wallhangers. It's actually something I am considering for the future as it really is so risky to try ANYTHING outside of Katana and Longsword, and even those two are a hard market with tiny profits..
Basically, the sword industry is too small and barely survives as it is.. Expand product offerings at your peril!!
I have said it before and I will say it again, no one in their right mind ever gets into the (functional) sword industry for the money. Wallhangers, a different story (totally different story - 5-10% profits on functional $300 swords that need high level customer service or 100% markup on a $30 sword that sells dozens in a day and you can see where the smart money is..!).
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 22, 2019 9:54:09 GMT
The issue is it is a HUGE risk to make any sword that is not a proven seller.. The investment costs to make original fittings usually involves 5 figure sums and few sword makers have enough money to invest in something a bit out there.. Heck, I am licking my wounds after attempting the Seraph Aegis and the Hobgoblin Jintachi - both now need to be wound up and sold below cost.. I've seen it happen many times before, only way to get something like this made is to go custom. Only way anything will ever change is if some company decides to come along and make some historically accurate wallhangers. It's actually something I am considering for the future as it really is so risky to try ANYTHING outside of Katana and Longsword, and even those two are a hard market with tiny profits.. Basically, the sword industry is too small and barely survives as it is.. Expand product offerings at your peril!! I have said it before and I will say it again, no one in their right mind ever gets into the (functional) sword industry for the money. Wallhangers, a different story (totally different story - 5-10% profits on functional $300 swords that need high level customer service or 100% markup on a $30 sword that sells dozens in a day and you can see where the smart money is..!). Oh, absolutely. Part of what I intended to convey was that there is so little knowledge about all the different types of swords that haven't seen any "screen time" that nobody knows they want one. Granted, the antiques (I use this term loosely, as some are less than 100 years old) market for many of these swords is just big enough that those who know about them can usually find a pretty good one, fairly cheap. Especially African swords, for instance. I bought a pair of flyssa (26" and 27" blades) from a seller on eBay for $550. They pair nicely with the smaller one (12" blade) I bought previously for $100. Swords of the Indian subcontinent and the Arab world, or North Africa into Central Asia if you prefer, are numerous in antiques as well, with prices ranging from "cheap katana" level to "Albion looks pretty cheap" level. I hate admitting this, but it seems like Cold Steel has put the most effort into introducing "new" swords to the market in the last decade or so. Seems like every year their catalog features something nobody else has. Obviously, the advantage of being as big as they are, and sourcing their stuff cheaply while selling it high (directly, at least) is no doubt part of their advantage, alongside their very aggressive advertising. One of the great things in the past decade, though, is that what the big makers make has become less relevant because of a huge boost in smaller, custom makers. So that's good.
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