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Post by Robert in California on Aug 19, 2018 0:38:07 GMT
Hi Folks,
Well, the end comes in my 5 months long efforts to get USPS to pay my $500 loss/theft/damage claim. The USPS refused. Early March 2018, I returned a JKOO katana in which the sword was excellent+, the saya was excellent+ but in good willed effort to get it to me before the Chinese New Year holiday shutdown, JKOO while q.c.ing the sword and q.c. the saya, did not q.c. the sword in saya fit. The habaki would bump the inside lip of the koguichi on one side a little bit. Not bad, but I sent it back for a fix. JKOO was going to repair or probably just give me a new, perfectly fitted saya. And pay for the shipping....great guy, that Van Yang and great service!
But then things went wrong. The package arrived at Shanghai Customs and disappeared (no trace, no paperwork documentation of location nor status).
Happily, I had insured against loss/damage/theft this $518 tamahagane katana for $500.
After a couple months of noone knowing where it was, and the sword neither leaving Shanghai Customs to be sent on to JKOO swords nor being sent back to me, I filed my $500 USPS insurance claim.
Long story short (not to go into the letters, documents, phone calls and help from JKOO), the USPS refused to give me the $500 insurance money despite acknowledging the loss/theft/damage claim.
Why?
Seems China has a rule.....exporting into China, weapons, is not allowed. So therefore the USPS refused to pay my $500 claim.
I appealed and today got another USPS letter saying they still refuse to pay the loss/theft/damage insurance.
Before it was because "my sword was at Shanghai Customs and so not lost". Later the USPS changed their refusal excuse to "banned item so we won't pay for your loss".
Despite my explaining and documenting that it was just a return for repair/replacement/refund, not a case of exporting weapons to China. Rather it was just a return of a "defective" item, back to the Chinese seller.
No luck with USPS....
What about JKOO?
Without my even asking (or knowing), Van Yang of JKOO/Sinosword, ordered a replacement tamahagane built for me...and sent it to me totally free...even paying the shipping.
JKOO? Van Yang? What an outfit! What a guy!
I have the replacement tamahagane katana...lovely, flawless!
But I pursued the USPS insurance claim because it was not fair JKOO eat the cost of another $518 katana just because dishonest workers at Shanghai Customs stole my sword.
Pursued my USPS insurance claim to no avail. USPS refused to pay me even a dollar. Just sent me a polite "screw you" letter.
Bottom line?
A sword sent for whatever to China that goes thru Shanghai Customs is not likely to make it to the destination.
JKOO and others send swords out thru HangZhou Customs (more honest, more reasonable).
But swords going from USA back to China route, I'm told, thru Shanghai Customs.....
So, don't ship swords back to China currently.
Too bad for us. Too bad for JKOO and others who seek to give good customer service.
RinC
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Aug 19, 2018 7:14:17 GMT
It's always been this way. Swords can't go into China from outside. So the makers in China have to provide a new sword when something wrong happens.
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Post by MOK on Aug 19, 2018 11:07:14 GMT
Well, that sucks.
Mad props to JKOO, though! That's really going above and beyond.
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pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Aug 19, 2018 13:25:24 GMT
My hat is off to JKOO.
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Post by pellius on Aug 19, 2018 13:34:35 GMT
What a huge load of unnecessary frustration.
Very impressive for JKOO to volunteer to take the financial hit. Truly a top notch classy move.
As for USPS straining for a reason to not honor their end of the insurance deal - very disappointing.
I’m glad this only cost you frustration and not a (second) sword.
Thanks for the heads-up.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 19, 2018 18:26:18 GMT
I run a small import business doing deals with vendors from central Europe/ former Soviet Republics. It is considered normal and ethical business practice to put a little "extra" into the shipping cost for the border guards and custom agents- especially if the item is a weapon. If you forget this "courtesy", then your stuff will never be seen again and nobody will know anything about it.
I'm not saying things are right or wrong with the way China deals in commerce, what I am saying is that it's different. They have their own ways of doing things which may seem wierd to us. Anytime you deal cross borders, then you have to understand the cultural differences and what they consider to be normal. They also find the way the US companies deal to be strange in their eyes as well, so it works both ways.
But I'm glad you got your issue resolved with the vendor at least. As for the USPS... let's just say that they continue to live down to the lowest expectations of customer service....
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Post by shotokan on Aug 19, 2018 18:57:22 GMT
Damn that sucks, but DHL and USPS for years have been hit and miss at best. I like UPS but you pay a lot more for them.
At least the bright side of all of this is the stellar character and customer service oriented JKOO. Be very happy you have a sword to show for all of this.
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stormmaster
Member
I like viking/migration era swords
Posts: 7,647
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Post by stormmaster on Aug 19, 2018 18:59:46 GMT
Yeah JKOO didn't have to but their customer service has always been stellar and they made it right
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Post by treeslicer on Aug 20, 2018 2:49:53 GMT
I run a small import business doing deals with vendors from central Europe/ former Soviet Republics. It is considered normal and ethical business practice to put a little "extra" into the shipping cost for the border guards and custom agents- especially if the item is a weapon. If you forget this "courtesy", then your stuff will never be seen again and nobody will know anything about it. I'm not saying things are right or wrong with the way China deals in commerce, what I am saying is that it's different. They have their own ways of doing things which may seem wierd to us. Anytime you deal cross borders, then you have to understand the cultural differences and what they consider to be normal. They also find the way the US companies deal to be strange in their eyes as well, so it works both ways. But I'm glad you got your issue resolved with the vendor at least. As for the USPS... let's just say that they continue to live down to the lowest expectations of customer service.... I'm currently waiting for a nice folded DH double-hi bare katana blade from Hanbon/swordmaker688 (a new vendor for me, BTW), which has been stuck in "HANGZHOU EMS" with no sign of movement for 9 days now, while parts ordered from Japan have been shipping efficiently despite the Obon festival. Anne (with Hanbon) has intimated that the delay might be in outbound customs. I've never had this happen before with a sword ordered from Longquan. I hope that ordering swords from China doesn't become a game of chance. That would truly suck.
Hanbon customer service, BTW, has been straightforward to communicate with, and quick to respond to messages during their local business day.
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Post by zabazagobo on Aug 20, 2018 5:00:17 GMT
I run a small import business doing deals with vendors from central Europe/ former Soviet Republics. It is considered normal and ethical business practice to put a little "extra" into the shipping cost for the border guards and custom agents- especially if the item is a weapon. If you forget this "courtesy", then your stuff will never be seen again and nobody will know anything about it. I'm not saying things are right or wrong with the way China deals in commerce, what I am saying is that it's different. They have their own ways of doing things which may seem wierd to us. Anytime you deal cross borders, then you have to understand the cultural differences and what they consider to be normal. They also find the way the US companies deal to be strange in their eyes as well, so it works both ways. But I'm glad you got your issue resolved with the vendor at least. As for the USPS... let's just say that they continue to live down to the lowest expectations of customer service.... I'm currently waiting for a nice folded DH double-hi bare katana blade from Hanbon/swordmaker688 (a new vendor for me, BTW), which has been stuck in "HANGZHOU EMS" with no sign of movement for 9 days now, while parts ordered from Japan have been shipping efficiently despite the Obon festival. Anne (with Hanbon) has intimated that the delay might be in outbound customs. I've never had this happen before with a sword ordered from Longquan. I hope that ordering swords from China doesn't become a game of chance. That would truly suck.
Hanbon customer service, BTW, has been straightforward to communicate with, and quick to respond to messages during their local business day.
This happened when I ordered some saya from an ebay source from China back in March. Shipment entered customs, seemed paralyzed there for weeks, then it ultimately arrived roughly a month later. Whereas in the past such a shipment would take about 10-12 days, it took a bit over 30. Things are weird shipping direct from China for small orders now it seems. I recall someone mentioning it took roughly 2 months to get a Huawei back in May/June. Sucks, but seems outbound shipments do eventually make there way to some countries, although much more slowly than before. Which irks me, as it seems almost like an effort to hinder smaller businesses rather than those dealing in larger shipments
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 20, 2018 10:44:04 GMT
Sometimes things happen in Customs that just can't be explained using logic. For example, I ordered a part for a machine at work called a "triant" from a supplier in Italy. Its simply a metal tube with some threads cut into one end. It was delayed in Customs. The first thing I had to do was fill out a form identifying which class of toxic chemical it belonged to. Since it wasn't a toxic chemical, I then had to fill out a form identifying it as exempt from being a toxic chemical. Then I had to fill out another form explaining what the composition of the raw material was and what its intended finished product would be. Since it wasn't raw material, I had to fill out another form identifying it as "not raw material". Then they wanted to know what type of machine part it was and what machine it went on. THEN they finally cleared it through Customs.
Naturally, each form required a different thread of communication with a different agent. All for a steel tube about 18 inches long. But I bought a rare pistol from a source in Crimea during the Russian transition and import embargo and had it delivered to my doorstep in 4 days flat without so much as a blip on anybody's radar- went through NY customs in 3 hours even though it was shipped wrapped in a sandbag.
So, yeah. Customs. What can you do but play their game according to their rules? Doesn't help us that nobody, including themselves, ever seems to understand what those rules are.
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Post by treeslicer on Aug 20, 2018 20:52:20 GMT
Sometimes things happen in Customs that just can't be explained using logic. For example, I ordered a part for a machine at work called a "triant" from a supplier in Italy. Its simply a metal tube with some threads cut into one end. It was delayed in Customs. The first thing I had to do was fill out a form identifying which class of toxic chemical it belonged to. Since it wasn't a toxic chemical, I then had to fill out a form identifying it as exempt from being a toxic chemical. Then I had to fill out another form explaining what the composition of the raw material was and what its intended finished product would be. Since it wasn't raw material, I had to fill out another form identifying it as "not raw material". Then they wanted to know what type of machine part it was and what machine it went on. THEN they finally cleared it through Customs. Naturally, each form required a different thread of communication with a different agent. All for a steel tube about 18 inches long. But I bought a rare pistol from a source in Crimea during the Russian transition and import embargo and had it delivered to my doorstep in 4 days flat without so much as a blip on anybody's radar- went through NY customs in 3 hours even though it was shipped wrapped in a sandbag. So, yeah. Customs. What can you do but play their game according to their rules? Doesn't help us that nobody, including themselves, ever seems to understand what those rules are. While I fully understand what you are saying here (US Customs regs, like the IRS Tax Code, require paranormal abilities to interpret), you seem to have missed what I said. The current delays of shipments from China seem to be occurring in Chinese outbound customs. The way things tend to work in China, this probably means a policy change on freely shipping certain stuff to the USA, which in turn means political ramifications both foreign and domestic. I figure it's a mixture of slapping our hands over the way recent trade negotiations have gone, while simultaneously reining in some sectors of their economy which Beijing feels aren't paying enough attention to the wishes of the central authority.
The implications for the membership here should be pretty obvious.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 20, 2018 21:45:58 GMT
Oh, I'm fully aware there is an internal problem with Chinese customs. And yes, since most of our blades come from China, this is a major concern. However, I'm not sure it would affect third party vendors with distribution warehouses in the US. It would be more expensive than direct from forge purchase, but we could at least still get the blades. It is certainly something to keep a close eye on how this develops. I'm sure at some point Chinese laws will hurt Chinese business and at that point it will change. But it's never easy to predict what the Chinese will do, so I'm staying away from making any firm predictions. We are just going to have to wait and see. All of this is way above our pay grades.
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Post by treeslicer on Aug 20, 2018 23:16:58 GMT
Oh, I'm fully aware there is an internal problem with Chinese customs. And yes, since most of our blades come from China, this is a major concern. However, I'm not sure it would affect third party vendors with distribution warehouses in the US. It would be more expensive than direct from forge purchase, but we could at least still get the blades. It is certainly something to keep a close eye on how this develops. I'm sure at some point Chinese laws will hurt Chinese business and at that point it will change. But it's never easy to predict what the Chinese will do, so I'm staying away from making any firm predictions. We are just going to have to wait and see. All of this is way above our pay grades. Yup, true. What I'm wanting is for people who experience unusual delays in EMS direct-ship (or who see no change in ship time) to post about it. Maybe a picture will develop. Maybe it won't.
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Post by Robert in California on Aug 21, 2018 0:51:03 GMT
The JKOO / Sinosword midare T10 katana and midare tamahagane katanas are top quality in polish and fit and finish, I find I can't bring myself to actually cut with either. Too nice, too high quality in workmanship. I do plan reviews.
So...I kind of would like to get a JKOO sughua 1095 katana....of JKOO's top quality of workmanship...but more of a simple "working man's" katana that while of exquisite workmanship, is simple and plain jane enough that I would have the will power to use it.
Using the JKOO T10 katana I was sent, would be like driving a new Lexus when I have a Ford at home.
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Post by Robert in California on Aug 21, 2018 1:15:51 GMT
In not so many years past, I have returned Longquan sword for repairs with no problem, going nor returning.
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Post by twichy on Aug 21, 2018 1:37:56 GMT
Many countries have bans on weapons being sent into their borders. You won't get caught every time. This is because not every package is checked. It doesnt make it any less illegal according to their laws. Basic contracts theory states that contracts are held to be void and unenforceable where the contract itself is illegal, and since your package was confiscated by Chinese customs, USPS is under no obligation to honor any insurance.
Think of it this way: if I pay Pedro, Paco, and Billy Bob a bunch of money to smuggle drugs across the US/mexico border, and the drugs are seized by Mexican or American customs, no one is going to indemnify me for the money I lost. It doesnt matter that Pedro and Paco are amazing smugglers (Billy Bob is just a dumb redneck) and have made it across the border just fine every week for the past 10 years. Your sword is no different. It amazes me how people fail to understand the difference between a single incident of data and a general rule or axiom. Just because something worked once, twice, or even a hundred times doesn't mean it will work again. There's a general rule in place. If you choose to ignore that rule or be ignorant regarding the existence of rules, you can't really blame anyone when you suffer loss.
There are many methods of shipping that bypass the export rules of China's weapon bans. Unfortunately they are expensive and unlikely to be feasible or justifiable for a $500 item. So basically you'll have to roll the customs dice if you want "perfection" and customization in your products if you're dealing with items that have to be shipped internationally for modification and/or repair... or simply accept that whatever you buy from the dealer will either be simply accepted with any defects or returned for refund. Of course, if you're ordering say... a $20k sword it makes sense to courier it back to the forge or to pay extra customs and declare the item as something other than a weapon. It just behooves you to be aware of customs regulations when shipping overseas. They're not hard to either find or understand and are generally written in plain English.
Of course the good news in all this is that there's most likely a duty that falls on the seller, as the party in the best position to be knowledgeable about the industry, to inform you of the risks regarding customs and should your order mysteriously disappear, they'd be responsible for indemnity. Hence: you get a new sword. The forge most likely figures that customs checks and the enforcement of the weapons laws for single shipped swords are rare enough that they're willing to just view it as a cost of business.
Finally, it's worth noting that many Chinese companies have legal agents in countries, like the US, that allow the import/export of weapons. And if they don't, many of them do business with resellers that are based in the US that stock and sell their products. While you probably won't have the customization options from buying from these sources, returning products for replacement is never an issue. And... returning a product for a REFUND (basically, refusing delivery for defective products) is always an option regardless of where you buy from. I've had lots of things eaten by Chinese customs over the years. It's just the risk you run sending something in that is against their rules. I've also ordered quite a few swords from quite a few smiths and almost nothing I've received is "perfect" if I really wanted to nitpick. There's a grey area between acceptable imperfections inherent to handmade goods and unacceptable error in craftsmanship. Perhaps next time the habaki bumps saya a bit you might consider a variety of sandpaper and some lacquer instead of sending it back... or simply getting a refund if the fit is bad enough now that you know the dangers and hassles of international shipping.
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Post by treeslicer on Aug 22, 2018 20:10:26 GMT
Well, my blade from Hanbon just arrived, having suddenly popped up at ISC New York without ever having "Origin Post Is Preparing Shipment" appear on the USPS tracking, then being expressed overnight, so that drama's over. Beautiful blade, BTW, lots of hataraki, bold hamon, good polish, darned sharp edge, nice futasuji-hi, and a most unexpected geometric yokote. More later in another thread, but for now, I've got some magnolia to go plane on.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Sept 19, 2018 13:53:30 GMT
When I ship something back to China, I do the label in Chinese and English. I do the Chinese as the first part, and the English almost as a sub-text. Some addresses do not translate well (like the sink), and often have to also hit google earth to confirm the address is what I think it actually is. American postmen do not speak Chinese, and need English labels. Many Chinese postmen do not speak English, and require Chinese labels. For the record, my Chinese is so horrible, as to approach non-existence. I had to practice writing the Chinese address about ten times on another piece of paper, then take that paper with me to the post office to use as an example/template to address the package.
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 10, 2018 1:58:44 GMT
Hi again folks,
Well, my appeal to my appeal to my USPS "guaranteed delivery", loss/damage/etc insurance claim just showed up in the mailbox. Rejected. The USPS highest appeals authority decided that in the case of my insurance claim for the theft of my $518 JKOO tamahagane katana by peoples at Shanghai Customs, that the USPS will not pay anything. So if there is a defect or other reason to return a sword to China, don't. Or at least, don't bother to insure the sword....in case of Chinese Customs staff stealing your swored, you will be SOL. Even though, if honest workers, they would have refused the package and it would have returned back to the USA sender. If honest workers.....but there are honest Chinese, and then there are dishonest Chinese government workers. RinC
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