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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 0:18:46 GMT
I was wondering if you could make a blade with Tungsten. More specifically i want to know if it would be possible to have a spring steel sword with a Tungsten edge because a blade made purely of Tungsten would probably be super heavy and shatter on impact. How would it fair vs a standard steel European sword of the same design and would its edge stay longer and hold a sharper edge? This Tungsten sword would probably have a Hollow Ground cross section because you would want as fine of a edge as possible. Could you get the Tungsten to hold onto the steel and not separate after a few hard blows?
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Post by nerdthenord on Aug 16, 2018 0:30:19 GMT
Someone with better knowledge of metallurgy than me should answer this, but from what I think I've heard is tungsten is very difficult to work with, particularly in alloys. I think having an edge of tungsten would negate the benefit of the spring steel, as it would still crack from the flexing of the blade.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 0:45:30 GMT
Someone with better knowledge of metallurgy than me should answer this, but from what I think I've heard is tungsten is very difficult to work with, particularly in alloys. I think having an edge of tungsten would negate the benefit of the spring steel, as it would still crack from the flexing of the blade. From what i know most high quality swords are spring so the whole sword doesn't shatter or transfer all energy into your wrist but have a cast edge so it wont bend and will hold its edge. idk how you dont get micro fractures along the edge but this is how it was explained to me, and this is why katanas have a curve is because its made straight but as it cools the blade shrinks away from the hardened edge.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 0:48:29 GMT
Lets ignore how hard it is to work with and assume the blade can be made, how would it be made so that the steel would hang onto the edge and would the Tungsten make for a good edge? Would the edge just beak into many smaller sections the moment the blade springs back from a blow? Would the Tungsten actually make for a good edge vs the edge of a steel blade?
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Post by nerdthenord on Aug 16, 2018 1:24:38 GMT
Just did a internet search. Information was pretty scarce for pure carbon edges, but it seems like it makes excellent slicers, but is so brittle impacts cause severe blunting from micro fractures very quickly, and it’s hardness makes it very difficult to sharpen or hone. So what it seems is that pure tungsten edges make exceptional slicing knives, but would be very impractical for swords. And yes, it seems like you could bond a tungsten edge to a sword, but it wouldn’t be any more effective than a differentially tempered monosteel blade. I think you may have heard of differential tempering and that’s what your thinking of in high end swords. The blade is usually monosteel, but the edges are tempered harder than the body. This makes the sword have a very hard cutting edge but a springy body. The primary reason spring steel is used in high end swords is because they flex instead of cracking or taking a permanent set on a bad hit. Some of the best swords of all time, the Frankish Ulfbhert swords of the 9th-11th centuries, were spring monosteel that were reported to be able to be flexed 90 degrees and suffer no damage or set.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 1:53:29 GMT
hmm, so are types of steel the "end all be all" of sword making or are there other alloys that could outclass it in sword on sword combat?
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Post by nerdthenord on Aug 16, 2018 2:06:26 GMT
Nitinol 60 probably is the perfect sword material, but it's so difficult to make in any sort of usable quantity it hasn't been tested yet. That's a nickel titanium alloy developed by the naval ordinance laboratory back in the cold war. It's like a super spring steel that's almost entirely corrosion proof.
As for practical materials, 5160 and 9260 steel are generally the go to steel for high end swords. Things like t10 and A2 steel make the sharpest and longest lasting sword edges, but are so hard that they are not good for beginners. They easily break or take a set on bad hits on even relatively soft targets.
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Post by nerdthenord on Aug 16, 2018 2:10:48 GMT
It gets really complicated, as Euro sword designs were specifically made for steel. Density and weight would be different for different materials. One of the big reasons titanium is never used for swords is it's too light and would be very lacking in blade power.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 2:11:00 GMT
i was actually looking at Nitinol before earlier today, i think people were saying knives are made of it but it liked to morph at room temperature or something... ill read into it more.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Aug 16, 2018 6:05:12 GMT
hmm, so are types of steel the "end all be all" of sword making or are there other alloys that could outclass it in sword on sword combat? Steel type, in some ways matters less than tempering, heat treat, blade geometry and dynamics, and grip and furniture design. After all, you can make a sword out of the best steel available but if it shatters or weighs 10 pounds then what's the use?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 6:08:03 GMT
well i meant are there any other metals or alloys that would do better, i feel how you make, treat, shape and cool would be just as important with any metal you're using.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 16, 2018 8:15:55 GMT
There exist some "supersteels" with many alloys (f.e. cpm-3v) and a special heat treating process for a nickel alloy steel (L6) to create "Bainite" in the steel blade, a certain semi crystalline microstructure in the steel. Those supersteels (usually multi alloy tool steels made for hardness with some tricks for more toughness) or processes can make a blade with higher hardness and still very tough. Very expensive because it's more complicated to make a blade this way. And the question is: Are those blades really so much better in real life than a 1060 blade with good heat treatment? Are they worth the price you pay for? Most swordsmen think that 95% is the heat treatment and 5% is the steel type that makes the quality of a swordblade.
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Post by RickDastardly on Aug 16, 2018 11:21:18 GMT
There's a guy on Bladeforums that has made a few swords from beta titanium alloy. The test cutting videos certainly look impressive (cutting bamboo and the like). I don't know how it's edge sharpness/holding compares, but I wonder if the edge could be carbidized like you can with steel. As mentioned above though, the lighter alloy changes the ballgame of making an effective weapon.
I would love to see a sword made properly from infi steel; Busse's proprietary steel/heat treatment. It's an incredible steel for its toughness in large blades. Noss on youtube did some awesome destruction tests on them. Busse has made a few swords (katana style and a gladius) but I feel they are overly heavy, made for those who like to bash trees and rocks with them. If I won the lottery I would commission a custom-made blade with proper sword dimensions.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 16, 2018 11:58:22 GMT
Yeah, let's not forget how much depends on the blade geometrics. Normal carbon steel was always good for cutting down trees ... in axes! You can increase the strenght of a cheap steel blade simply by making it double thick. I've read somewhere that the interesting thing in bainite is to make a thinner and lighter swordblade but as tough as a thicker blade. Always when I hear of supersteel blades it's from knifemakers (where the supersteel hype comes from) and those blades are overbuilt then. Why, if the steel is so super?
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Post by wlewisiii on Aug 16, 2018 14:45:08 GMT
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