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Post by ulysses on Jun 26, 2018 13:02:21 GMT
Hi All, Can anyone help? I have a pair of Swedish Cavalry Sabres (photos attached) that I'm trying to identify. I'm located in Ireland and expertise in relation to European Sabres is hard to find. Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated. Attachments:
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Post by likehotbutter on Jun 26, 2018 16:45:05 GMT
M/1854
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Post by Pino on Jun 26, 2018 17:37:41 GMT
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Post by elsweddo on Jun 26, 2018 17:53:39 GMT
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Post by bfoo2 on Jun 27, 2018 6:13:44 GMT
Seems like the upper scabbard suspension ring is missing? I'd still buy it . Swedish sword availability is patchy. I've had a hard time getting Swedish stuff across the pond. The Vikings landed in Canada about 1000 years ago, but unfortunately they didn't think to leave any Swedish military sabres behind for the locals (although its hard to blame them since those wouldn't be invented for another 700 years or so). On the other hand, I hear that they are cheap and plentiful through local auction houses in the land of ABBA and IKEA
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jun 27, 2018 16:28:47 GMT
Plentiful yeah, cheap not really anymore. Lots of bidders from the rest of Europe now. Word gets around. Ulysses: Another good link is the Blankwaffen Gallerie: www.deutsches-blankwaffenforum.de/galerie/lange_seitenwaffen-1.html Use the triangle going to the right for flipping through the collection. Click on the picture to go to the article. And of course: www.deutsches-blankwaffenforum/index.php?s=f29d9b2ab2989ff6dc549e93a5404b18 Scroll down the left sidebar to Sweden. Click and it will lead you to all articles in this section. If you do not read German just paste the url in Google Translate, after turning off ,, Instand Translation''. You may be interested in my post here: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/50781/swedish-cavalry-troopers-sabre-m1864 .
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Post by christopher jonasson on Jun 29, 2018 19:00:45 GMT
Seems like the upper scabbard suspension ring is missing? Its on the other side
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jun 30, 2018 2:02:52 GMT
Seems like the upper scabbard suspension ring is missing? Its on the other side Anything kept in service to WWI got a blued scabbard that was cinched to the saddle.
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jun 30, 2018 15:40:49 GMT
This is my verbatim response to an email request from Ulysses for more info as he was, like he said, ,, at a dead end ''. This request caught me in the middle of some important stuff I had to do, so that's why the ,, Oh for Gods sake little brother '' undertone for which I will definitely not apologize. So there. ,, Okay. If you Google Images ,,Swedish Cavalry sabre '' , you will get a nice overview. Digging through the images and using the links we gave you, you'll find you have an M1854 sabre. The brass finger loop - ferrule block is the give away. Now, if you read my post on the M1864, you will come across my comments on what happened with the scabbards. Keep that in your head. Going back to the Google images and studying the various scabbards of all the models of sabres after the M1854, you'll see one that fits yours. The upgraded scabbard of the M1867. If you do a specific Google Images search for the M1867, you'll get two nice pictures of the original and the upgraded scabbard. ( see attachments ) The upgraded scabbard fits perfectly. It has the old two screw mouthpiece system all later models do not have anymore and it has the new scabbard furniture. So in short, what you have is the M1854 with the nice integrated ferrule - finger loop block paired with the new scabbard for the M1854-64 and M1867 sabres. My take on what happened is that the old two ring scabbards of the M1854-64 and M1867 were refurbished to adhere to the new saddle hook system. Since the two screw mouth piece system is unique for said models and still present on the upgraded scabbards, I think that the old ring furniture was just taken off and the new furniture brazed on again. Next the ,, new '' scabbards also got the bluing treatment. If you remember my comments on the Swedish scabbard developments, you will even get an approximate date as to when this was done. At the time the scabbards were upgraded the M1854 was already rather old, but remember, those sabres had a very long service life. I hope this answers your questions.'' Cheers. M1854 with original scabbard. M1854 with upgraded scabbard. M1867 with original scabbard. M1867 with upgraded scabbard. All pictures courtesy of Bukowsky Auctions.
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Post by bfoo2 on Jul 3, 2018 5:21:06 GMT
Iiiiinteresting information gentlemen! I have an M1867 and an M1893, both with the upgraded / blued scabbards. I thought they just came from the factory like that. I saw a few 1854s with the standard scabbard; don't recall seeing an upgraded one. I didn't know they kept the 1854 in service up to WWI- seems a bit long in the tooth. I always guessed that the service swords for any war would be the current issue model (M1893) and the one immediately preceding it (M1867, presumably accumulating in stores and warehouses following the issue of the M1893). Of course, this is assuming that the army would diligently keep their inventory relatively up-to-date... Uhlan Still much better than in America. We got American and British stuff all over the place here, but not so much European. The only Swedish things I've managed to buy here in recent years are a bag of frozen meatballs from IKEA and an ABBA "greatest hits" CD album (...but I must say, what a great album it is!) If only the M1893 could be disassembled into a flat box like IKEA furniture for easy shipping...
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 3, 2018 10:38:16 GMT
Swedes were a frugal people of the Calvinistic bend. The much older M1814 LC and HC cavalry sabres came out just a tad too late for use in the Napoleonic wars. So they were used as parade sabres until quite recently. Very nice Swedish 100% copies of the French An XI with blades from Solingen. The M1814 HC is a typical Swedish beast though. Its scabbard weighs almost as much as the '14 LC sabre. If you ever want to buy a French AN XI watch out you do not get the M1814. Not that the Swede is the lesser, far from it, it is much rarer than the French and very well build in the old Volvo / Saab tradition. It is just not French, so you miss out on supposed history histrionics and other romantic Technicolour crap you will have to pay dearly for. Side by side there is only one difference: The ring mounts. The Swedes have the typical ,,Germanic'' Blucher like mounts. The French never ever used those. And the French stamping system is different too of course.
,, If only the M1893 could be disassembled into a flat box like IKEA furniture for easy shipping...''
I am sorry, but that is not an argument. You just do not want it enough. 8-)
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Post by bfoo2 on Jul 4, 2018 4:37:55 GMT
The M1814 HC is a typical Swedish beast though. Its scabbard weighs almost as much as the '14 LC sabre. If you ever want to buy a French AN XI watch out you do not get the M1814. Not that the Swede is the lesser, far from it, it is much rarer than the French and very well build in the old Volvo / Saab tradition. It is just not French, so you miss out on supposed history histrionics and other romantic Technicolour crap you will have to pay dearly for. I have never known a Swedish cavalry trooper's sword to be dainty. Sorry, I already got one (Hence I know as a fact that you do not want to pay shipping for that brute) (Now Dave's gonna post his Swedish collection and make all of us sad...) *EDIT* nevermind, he already did. How did I miss it the first time?
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Post by bfoo2 on Jul 4, 2018 4:44:23 GMT
Random question: Did the 1867 ever have leather over the wood grips, or were they all bare wood?
I have not seen an 1867 with anything other than bare wood, so I would assume this was standard. On the other hand the preceding model (1854/64) and the following model (1893) both had leather wrapped grips. To exclude them on this one model seems odd. Maybe they went through a hip and trendy "vegan" phase in life...?
Alternatively, most of the 1893s I've seen are bare wood; some have sad remnants of what was once a leather cover and very few have an intact wrapping. This would suggest to me that the earlier 1867 models also had leather-covered grips but for some reason the Swedes wore theirs down to the wood fairly readily.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 4, 2018 7:28:45 GMT
If the M1867 grips initially had a leather wrap there should at least be some examples around to show the intact grips. There are none. The Swedish Digital Army Museum collection would have had those specimens in the collection, as they only collect the best of the best of 100% intact examples of anything the Swedish Army ever used. That is why they are the number one reference source. Elsweddo already gave the link: digitaltmuseum.se/011024402113/sabel-m-1854 . So we can be sure that the M1867 had just the wood grip.
We may speculate as to why did was done. You already tabled the Vegan cum Proto Hippie motion. I would like to suggest another angle: A shortage of fish oil, essential for survival of the human species settled in the Northern Hemisphere as the poor dears do not have very much sun, caused a temporarily deficiency in the intake of Vitamin D, thus destabilizing their, due to drinking copious amounts of anything with alcohol in the recipe, the destillation of brake fluid and shoe polish came somewhat later on the scene of course, already fragile minds. Hence the wood grips. The occurrence of wooden grips on the Russian Shashka may point to the same problem. They needed the leather to make washers for their stills.
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Post by bfoo2 on Jul 5, 2018 7:08:33 GMT
If the M1867 grips initially had a leather wrap there should at least be some examples around to show the intact grips. There are none. The Swedish Digital Army Museum collection would have had those specimens in the collection, as they only collect the best of the best of 100% intact examples of anything the Swedish Army ever used. That is why they are the number one reference source. Elsweddo already gave the link: digitaltmuseum.se/011024402113/sabel-m-1854 . So we can be sure that the M1867 had just the wood grip. Of course! I should have thought about that. Silly me. Concerning the concessions (real or imagined) made by various Armed Forces in the name of getting drunk: I am reminded of the fact that for several decades, the Russians didn't bother denaturing the alcohol used for de-icing fluid on their nuclear bombers. With predictable results. (In America, they probably replace the booze-containing hydraulic fluid with the cheapo crap they call "beer" in order to make it completely undrinkable to any person with reasonable standards of conduct ) Still doesn't explain the leather on either the preceding or succeeding models. I'm still standing by my "rebellious anti-establishment teenage hippie" theory. And c'mon...if any country were to experience a brief-yet-violent teenage " goth" phase in life, wouldn't it be fitting if it was the country where the original " Goths" came from?
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 5, 2018 13:42:00 GMT
Since the Post Modern academic standard prevelent in the Social Sciences or the ,, Clowns Quarter '' is revised to reflect the egalising benefits of Post Colonial Neo Marxist thinking, I am happy to say: ,, My refutation of your Vegan theory has more words in it. I win ''.
Cheers comrade.
PS.
Bonus.
,, Post Modern science as explained for the benefit of the utterly common and unenlightened folk from STEM studies departments '' by Dra. Anne Elk (MISS):
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Post by bfoo2 on Jul 10, 2018 6:42:37 GMT
Uhlan : I'm willing to concede the point for now solely on the basis that you were the first to incorporate a Monty Python reference. I have to respect that. Although be aware that as soon as I manage to incorporate a sensationalist mass-media/marketing-friendly phrase like "carbon-neutral", "paradigm-shift", or "crowd-based", the advantage will be mine. I will substantially oversimplify a complicated theory to fit into the totally-inadequate confines of an eye-catching headline or even a hashtag, draw conclusions far beyond what my data can reasonably support, bypass the scrutiny of my qualified peers in academia and take my theory straight to social media and the masses. On an unrelated note, isn't it AMAZING how so many different foods (all organic, of course) can cure cancer?
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Jul 10, 2018 16:31:50 GMT
You forgot 'free-range', 'GMO-Free' and maybe 'Cage Free'. Cage free swords...lol~!
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Post by oddj on Jun 9, 2021 22:38:57 GMT
If the M1867 grips initially had a leather wrap there should at least be some examples around to show the intact grips. There are none. The Swedish Digital Army Museum collection would have had those specimens in the collection, as they only collect the best of the best of 100% intact examples of anything the Swedish Army ever used. That is why they are the number one reference source. Elsweddo already gave the link: digitaltmuseum.se/011024402113/sabel-m-1854 . So we can be sure that the M1867 had just the wood grip. I beg to differ. Both of my 1867s has a leather covered grip.Or the one with 2 rings at least has leather grip, I just bought the other one today, and can`t say for sure until I have it in my hands, but it looks like it has it as well.
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Post by snubnoze on Jun 10, 2021 16:22:27 GMT
I'm a sucker for symmetrical guards, now I need to have one of these!
Do these ever pop up in the market? I'm still pretty new to collecting antique swords.
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