Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Jun 19, 2018 9:29:27 GMT
Thanks for the advice! You make an excellent point though. If it bothers you, move it. If thats what was always done, then I guess I could feel regular with my constant shifting and such
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 19, 2018 10:56:04 GMT
Another question: This might just be in fantasy art, but is it even possible to comfortably use a sword with a bunch of pouches on a waist belt? I find my canvas pouch, when worn there, tends to get bumped by my elbows a lot. If your belt is at elbow level, then pouches hanging from your belt should be below elbow level. You can also make more space for your arms by hanging the pouches at front and back, rather than at the sides. Some pouches in art: commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pieter_Bruegel_the_Elder_(1568)_The_Blind_Leading_the_Blind.jpgThird on the left has a couple of pouches hanging in front. Also a shoulder strap supporting something. Far right (fallen) has something on a shoulder strap. commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pieter_Bruegel_The_Peasant_Dance.jpgThe woman on the right has a very low-hanging pouch (this might bounce around when running), as does the very short woman in front of the table at the left. commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pieter_Bruegel_de_Oude_-_De_bruiloft_dans_(Detroit).jpgThe fat man in red near the bottom left has a big pouch hanging in front, and the woman dancing with him has a low-hanging puch (which is bouncing around). The man with the orange shirt on the right has a belt high on his waist with a few long danglies. Some of them have things on shoulder straps. The bagpiper at the bottom right has a fairly low-slung sword/knife - short, it only just reaches his knee; the other side of the strap holding it might be attached to his (waist) belt. This kind of suspension, with the scabbard pulled against the hip by the strap can be good for keeping the hilt below elbow level and keeping the scabbard firm against the body. It can bounce around more when running than some other suspensions, but is much better than something hanging against the legs. commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pieter_Bruegel_the_Elder_-_Hunters_in_the_Snow_(Winter)_-_Google_Art_Project.jpgcommons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Duerer_tod_und_landsknecht.jpgA Landsknecht with sword suspending somewhat like the bagpiper above. In this case, the sword is close to horizontal, keeping the blade clear of the legs. commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Landsknecht_with_his_Wife.jpgSimilar again, but lower-slung. This has more bounce potential, since the scabbard is sitting against the upper thigh rather than the hip. commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Der_Weisskunig_24_Detail_Landsknecht_%26_Hungarians.jpgThe Landsknecht in the centre shows this suspension from the other side, with the strap attached to a waist-belt on the right side. The Hungarian cavalryman in the front has his sabre hilt quite high, at elbow height. This keeps the bottom of the scabbard clear of his lower legs, but he has to learn to move his right arm around it. It isn't too big an obstacle since the hilt is fairly flat (a Katzbalger with a wide S or 8 guard would get in the way more).
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 19, 2018 13:08:33 GMT
I started writing this yesterday and got distracted and never finished. After spending the afternoon as time permitted viewing old art work of battles, something that you might want to do to form your own opinions. But this is what I observed. Frequently archers would be doing their thing with a sheathed sword strapped to their side as were those working their pole weapons. In some cases no scabbard nor swords were seen. In the scenes involving hot combat with swords scabbards were seen, in other paintings no scabbards. It looks like there was no set rules on this and local customs prevailed. Coming forward in time I’ve seen scabbards held in the hand, in some cases as though to protect the arm. I doubt if there was a blanket rule that applied to everybody down through the ages.
I know in some cultures they relieved themselves of the scabbard and fought without it. Moving to more modern times the grunt in the western world that didn’t have a scabbard to turn in, well let's say was encouraged to retain it.
Thanks for the pictures Nimo. I love them, but they do not show combat, only daily carry and concentrating on pouch carry. I hadn't considered that in much detail before and found interesting. I only have one and it hangs just below the belt in front and does not bother me. Short bladed swords seems popular. I like them, 22”-26” seems to be my favourites, greater than 30” is getting long for me, rapiers excepted.
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jun 19, 2018 16:42:23 GMT
In a real fight, I might be tempted to drop the scabbard belt and all. #context Has this video about Medieval scabbards from Scholagladiatoria been mentioned yet? Medieval Sword Scabbards - Matt & Tod
It opened my eyes a bit to some differences in the suspension systems.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 19, 2018 20:10:05 GMT
You mean the discussion staring at mark 22:01? I had forgotten that video.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Jun 19, 2018 21:06:54 GMT
Damn, that video was enlightening. As was the art posted by Timo. What I have gathered is exactly what Pgandy said. Whatever works for me, as even back then, they seemed to have had a ton of variety they constantly tried to improve. Thanks a bunch to you guys for all the information
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 19, 2018 22:53:41 GMT
Thanks for the pictures Nimo. I love them, but they do not show combat, only daily carry and concentrating on pouch carry. Sure, 'cause pouches were brought up and that's what I was looking for. The sword carry shown in those pictures - sword at left hip, either vertical, angled, or horizontal, held by a strap attached to the right-hand side of a waist belt, is a common Renaissance military carry. The way that the Landsknechts are wearing their swords in those pictures is also how they wore them in battle. Non-Landsknechts, too. Examples: commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bad-war.jpgcommons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Der_Weisskunig_109_Detail_Landsknecht_Battle.jpgcommons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Der_Weisskunig_34_Detail_Landsknecht_Slaying_Knights.jpgcommons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Der_Weisskunig_72_Detail_Landsknecht_Battle.jpgThe same carry is also seen in late Medieval art: commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Battle_of_Montiel.jpgNote soldier on foot with green brigandine(?) with pollaxe towards the bottom left. commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mortagne_siege.jpgHere's an interesting one, where the suspension method isn't clear. It might be the same. The swords are hanging vetically, at the hip. The hilts are high enough so that elbows will have to move around them: commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Battle_of_crecy_froissart.jpg
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 19, 2018 23:04:34 GMT
A thousand thanks Nimo. I recognized the first right off as being the Swiss Army. I’ll study and enjoy all tonight when I have more time. I truly enjoy looking at old art as the say so many things without getting wordy. I wasn’t knocking you for posting pictures of pouches. They taught me a lot including a wealth of other matters.
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