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Post by howler on Apr 15, 2018 0:13:15 GMT
Looking at the antiques listed on Atlanta Cutlery, they say an old (pre-1890) Bhojpure (known as a heavy kukri) has a 17" blade that is 2 1/2" wide and 3/8" thick. That's pretty beefy. No weight listed, but I can imagine 700 grams or more. That's 17" total length; blades are usually about 13". These are usually 500-650g. The bigger ones with 15" to 16" of blade are usually 800-900g. A bunch on lengths, weights, thicknesses for various old Nepalese military kukris: chinesemartialstudies.com/2012/11/05/identifying-and-collecting-the-nepalese-military-kukri/So more thickness than weight, if one is to even make a distinction, as any of those traditional kukri are incredibly thick at the spine. I have multiple examples as thin as 5mm at the base of the spine. Not what I'd call incredibly thick. 8mm to 12mm is common for big kukris, at the base of the spine, but I don't think that's unusual for traditional knives of that size (very common for Philippine bolos). Sure, there are thinner-based knives out there, but there are enough in the 1/3" to 1/2" range that I'd call it normal enough, rather than "incredibly thick". I get what your saying, and am only using thin to describe the CS machete and obvious little knives that are used like someone would a mora type knife (which can also be called kukri, but not in the general mental image of one).
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Apr 15, 2018 0:18:09 GMT
I'm not sure how common it is, but as far as thickness, I know my sirupate gets thicker into the bend and then thins out again to the tip. I don't know the exact measurements off hand, might get them when I get home. Common enough. The closest kukri at hand (a typical military bhojpure) is 9.1mm at the base, thickening to 9.6mm halfway to the corner on the spine (end of fuller), thinning to 8.1mm at the corner, 6.5mm halway between corner and tip, and 5mm about 1" back from the tip (and 582g).
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Post by howler on Apr 15, 2018 0:40:13 GMT
I'm not sure how common it is, but as far as thickness, I know my sirupate gets thicker into the bend and then thins out again to the tip. I don't know the exact measurements off hand, might get them when I get home. Common enough. The closest kukri at hand (a typical military bhojpure) is 9.1mm at the base, thickening to 9.6mm halfway to the corner on the spine (end of fuller), thinning to 8.1mm at the corner, 6.5mm halway between corner and tip, and 5mm about 1" back from the tip (and 582g). I got an el cheapo from BUDK years ago that is SHOCKINGLY good for what I paid, and it is maybe (if I remember correctly) around a 1/4", and I believe it was from traditional region (maybe Windlass, not sure). You put a good edge on it and the 5160 will probably take care of you. The sharpeners and sheath weren't great, but that wasn't what I was buying, and the price was around $12 (I bought wholesale from Matthews).
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Apr 15, 2018 0:50:58 GMT
Old fighting kukri - ones designed more as primary weapons, to be used with a shield/buckler, to be used with a matchlock rather than a modern cartridge rifle or MG - can have weights similar to kukri machetes of similar length. Compared to these fighting kukris, the CS kukri machete is very short, so let us compare with the CS magnum kukri machete: 17" blade, 5" handle, 20.1oz. Two old fighting kukri (not mine, and photo not available thanks to Photobucket): 1. 21.5" blade, 6" handle, 24oz 2. 18.5" blade, 4.5" handle, 29oz In “Swordsmen of the British Empire”, I forgot the chapter, there were several accounts of the Brits facing Gurkhas during the Anglo-Nepalese War, so the events must have been prior to 1816 describing the kukri. Nearly all described the blade as being 2’ in length, one description said 2’ to 30”. There were also descriptions on how they were used, that is the Gurkha would lie on the ground and disembowel or strike a leg of the horses as the cavalry past and then attack before the rider could recover. It was later stated in the African Wars of a similar tactic with more information that is when on the ground they were out of the British sword reach. No mention of weight given. I assumed the OP was in regards to what’s on the market today so I made no mention of this.
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Post by treeslicer on Apr 15, 2018 11:51:23 GMT
Common enough. The closest kukri at hand (a typical military bhojpure) is 9.1mm at the base, thickening to 9.6mm halfway to the corner on the spine (end of fuller), thinning to 8.1mm at the corner, 6.5mm halway between corner and tip, and 5mm about 1" back from the tip (and 582g). I got an el cheapo from BUDK years ago that is SHOCKINGLY good for what I paid, and it is maybe (if I remember correctly) around a 1/4", and I believe it was from traditional region (maybe Windlass, not sure). You put a good edge on it and the 5160 will probably take care of you. The sharpeners and sheath weren't great, but that wasn't what I was buying, and the price was around $12 (I bought wholesale from Matthews). The most common cheap Indian-made kukris in circulation today are perfectly legitimate copies of the British Mark 3 (has the brown wood scaled through-tang riveted hilt with steel endcap, but without bolsters) pattern, manufactured by the original contractors (including Windlass). The original BudK version was one of these, indistinguishable from those supplied to the Indian Army, and stamped "India". I own and use one, and have nothing bad to say about it. Some current Mark 3 versions are made in China, and according to reviews I have read, are not up to the original spec. While kukri- style knives are a broad category, the term kukri without any other qualification should only be applied for collecting purposes, IMHO, 1) to kukri-style knives produced in Nepal by Nepalese using traditional methods, 2) to any knife of kukri style actually issued by or produced for the Nepalese, British, or Indian governments, or 3) to knives produced to a British military kukri pattern in Nepal or India for civilian sale by the original military contractors (or their successors), and up to the original specifications.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Apr 15, 2018 14:01:33 GMT
While kukri- style knives are a broad category, the term kukri without any other qualification should only be applied for collecting purposes, IMHO, 1) to kukri-style knives produced in Nepal by Nepalese using traditional methods, 2) to any knife of kukri style actually issued by or produced for the Nepalese, British, or Indian governments, or 3) to knives produced to a British military kukri pattern in Nepal or India for civilian sale by the original military contractors (or their successors), and up to the original specifications. I couldn't agree more. All three of mine were produced in Nepal, not to military specs though. Great knives, I love'em. .
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Post by howler on Apr 15, 2018 18:56:52 GMT
I got an el cheapo from BUDK years ago that is SHOCKINGLY good for what I paid, and it is maybe (if I remember correctly) around a 1/4", and I believe it was from traditional region (maybe Windlass, not sure). You put a good edge on it and the 5160 will probably take care of you. The sharpeners and sheath weren't great, but that wasn't what I was buying, and the price was around $12 (I bought wholesale from Matthews). The most common cheap Indian-made kukris in circulation today are perfectly legitimate copies of the British Mark 3 (has the brown wood scaled through-tang riveted hilt with steel endcap, but without bolsters) pattern, manufactured by the original contractors (including Windlass). The original BudK version was one of these, indistinguishable from those supplied to the Indian Army, and stamped "India". I own and use one, and have nothing bad to say about it. Some current Mark 3 versions are made in China, and according to reviews I have read, are not up to the original spec. While kukri- style knives are a broad category, the term kukri without any other qualification should only be applied for collecting purposes, IMHO, 1) to kukri-style knives produced in Nepal by Nepalese using traditional methods, 2) to any knife of kukri style actually issued by or produced for the Nepalese, British, or Indian governments, or 3) to knives produced to a British military kukri pattern in Nepal or India for civilian sale by the original military contractors (or their successors), and up to the original specifications. Well stated.
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Post by kalkikrosah on Apr 23, 2018 0:48:38 GMT
Yes and no. There is no definite weight requirement but in order for it to function the way its meant to it does need some weight to it. It's a big working knife so it is thicker than normal knives but at the same time the antique versions come exclusively with hidden tangs, making it lighter overall but also more blade heavy. The combination of a heavy blade and a light handle gives it a high point of balance. And that slant to the blade means it always comes down with the business end.
Many imitation KLOs tend to either make the blade too heavy or too light. They cut off excess weight by thinning out the blade entirely and changing some of the materials included in the hilt for modern materials which messes with the weight distribution. The Cold Steel Machete feels agile in the hand (so I am told) but many say that it is too light. Then you have the authentic khukuri manufacturers who westernize their khukuris with full tangs, handle guards and other unnecessary adjustments which makes the khukuri heavier than it should be and almost unwieldy.
Personally, the defining characteristic of a khukuri to me is that it just feels like it wants to do the chopping for you. The blade slant, the thick blade and light handle all work in unison to give you that feeling. When it gets too heavy or too light you lose that feeling and lose what makes a khukuri a khukuri.
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Post by howler on Apr 23, 2018 1:14:37 GMT
Yes and no. There is no definite weight requirement but in order for it to function the way its meant to it does need some weight to it. It's a big working knife so it is thicker than normal knives but at the same time the antique versions come exclusively with hidden tangs, making it lighter overall but also more blade heavy. The combination of a heavy blade and a light handle gives it a high point of balance. And that slant to the blade means it always comes down with the business end. Many imitation KLOs tend to either make the blade too heavy or too light. They cut off excess weight by thinning out the blade entirely and changing some of the materials included in the hilt for modern materials which messes with the weight distribution. The Cold Steel Machete feels agile in the hand (so I am told) but many say that it is too light. Then you have the authentic khukuri manufacturers who westernize their khukuris with full tangs, handle guards and other unnecessary adjustments which makes the khukuri heavier than it should be and almost unwieldy. Personally, the defining characteristic of a khukuri to me is that it just feels like it wants to do the chopping for you. The blade slant, the thick blade and light handle all work in unison to give you that feeling. When it gets too heavy or too light you lose that feeling and lose what makes a khukuri a khukuri. Good answer. There are fantastic KLOs out there, but you would have to handle or read reviews to see if they are useful or not. Ontario and Kabar are incredible tools, btw, and are under $50.
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Post by kalkikrosah on Apr 23, 2018 14:25:57 GMT
I'm slightly intrigued to try out an Ontario. I think between the three best KLOs floating around the Ontario looks like they do the design the best. The other two being Kabar's khukuri, which you mentioned, and Cold Steel's khukuri machete, which was originally mentioned in this thread by Timo. To me, the Kabar khukuri looks stout and beefy but I think they extend the belly too far back. You're just not going to get much use of a belly in the crook of the blade edge in a chopping fashion, its best left thinner to cut down on the weight. It looks overbuilt. And Cold Steel just looks very bland. The belly is there but the sweet spot looks wrong to my eyes. It should be closer to the weak end of the blade. Take a look at Himalayan Imports, Tora Blades or Khukuri House Handicraft Industries and you'll see what I mean about the location of the sweet spot. The Ontario still looks wrong to me mainly because the westernized handle. The palm swell, finger guard and end cap (at a loss for words on what to call the end cap) definitely expose it to be an "inspired" design instead of an authentic one. But the blade profile looks close to accurate. It looks underweight but the sweet spot looks like it is in the right spot. If they thicken the blade a bit I think they may be hard to beat at making the very best westernized khukuri design conceived. Some photos of the KLOs in question as well as a photo of an antique khukuri: Ontario Khukuri: goo.gl/images/86hwqpCold Steel Khukuri machete: goo.gl/images/bXzH24Kabar Khukuri: goo.gl/images/WRUucCAntique Khukuri: goo.gl/images/YgVNyn
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Post by howler on Apr 23, 2018 18:44:24 GMT
I'm slightly intrigued to try out an Ontario. I think between the three best KLOs floating around the Ontario looks like they do the design the best. The other two being Kabar's khukuri, which you mentioned, and Cold Steel's khukuri machete, which was originally mentioned in this thread by Timo. To me, the Kabar khukuri looks stout and beefy but I think they extend the belly too far back. You're just not going to get much use of a belly in the crook of the blade edge in a chopping fashion, its best left thinner to cut down on the weight. It looks overbuilt. And Cold Steel just looks very bland. The belly is there but the sweet spot looks wrong to my eyes. It should be closer to the weak end of the blade. Take a look at Himalayan Imports, Tora Blades or Khukuri House Handicraft Industries and you'll see what I mean about the location of the sweet spot. The Ontario still looks wrong to me mainly because the westernized handle. The palm swell, finger guard and end cap (at a loss for words on what to call the end cap) definitely expose it to be an "inspired" design instead of an authentic one. But the blade profile looks close to accurate. It looks underweight but the sweet spot looks like it is in the right spot. If they thicken the blade a bit I think they may be hard to beat at making the very best westernized khukuri design conceived. Some photos of the KLOs in question as well as a photo of an antique khukuri: Ontario Khukuri: goo.gl/images/86hwqpCold Steel Khukuri machete: goo.gl/images/bXzH24Kabar Khukuri: goo.gl/images/WRUucCAntique Khukuri: goo.gl/images/YgVNynThe Kabar is a COMPLETE ODDBALL compared to traditional khukuri, as it as a thin wide saber blade with short hollow grind. Yet, with all that, you read the reviews and if sounds like people stumbled on the holy grail of chopping machete. Not the same animal as HI and the like, but as a somewhat inexpensive short machete type chopper it does get glowing reviews.
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Post by treeslicer on Apr 24, 2018 4:14:24 GMT
I'll note that all real kukris or Philippine bolos (whether itaks, talibons, barongs, or whatever) are differentially water quenched by partial immersion, which makes these blades superior to their knockoffs for chopping shrubbery (and various other rough usage). IMHO, this is a more important characteristic than the weight. I've broken several through hardened machetes over the years, but still have all the kukris and bolos I started out with.
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Post by howler on Apr 24, 2018 21:06:33 GMT
I'll note that all real kukris or Philippine bolos (whether itaks, talibons, barongs, or whatever) are differentially water quenched by partial immersion, which makes these blades superior to their knockoffs for chopping shrubbery (and various other rough usage). IMHO, this is a more important characteristic than the weight. I've broken several through hardened machetes over the years, but still have all the kukris and bolos I started out with. I think the big consideration, whether through hardened or differentially tempered, is the reputation and quality control of the company you purchase from, as you will see examples of each that are tough as nails from various reputable companies.
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Post by treeslicer on Apr 24, 2018 23:55:04 GMT
I'll note that all real kukris or Philippine bolos (whether itaks, talibons, barongs, or whatever) are differentially water quenched by partial immersion, which makes these blades superior to their knockoffs for chopping shrubbery (and various other rough usage). IMHO, this is a more important characteristic than the weight. I've broken several through hardened machetes over the years, but still have all the kukris and bolos I started out with. I think the big consideration, whether through hardened or differentially tempered, is the reputation and quality control of the company you purchase from, as you will see examples of each that are tough as nails from various reputable companies. I feel that Ontario, Collins, and Tramontina are reputable enough. All are popular in places where the things get seriously used day after day. I've seen some of each busted before. I just find it more than a little noteworthy that blades forged from scrap steel against "field expedient" anvils using a charcoal forge and quenched by hand and eye in water alone seem to outperform commercial machete blades. Part is also the design difference, the bolos and kukris are thick and stiff, as well as have both lateral and distal taper, while the machetes are flexible, and made from uniform thickness spring stock. IMHO, the flexure during chopping, combined with the uniform thickness and hardness encourages metal fatigue.
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Post by howler on Apr 25, 2018 1:17:12 GMT
I think the big consideration, whether through hardened or differentially tempered, is the reputation and quality control of the company you purchase from, as you will see examples of each that are tough as nails from various reputable companies. I feel that Ontario, Collins, and Tramontina are reputable enough. All are popular in places where the things get seriously used day after day. I've seen some of each busted before. I just find it more than a little noteworthy that blades forged from scrap steel against "field expedient" anvils using a charcoal forge and quenched by hand and eye in water alone seem to outperform commercial machete blades. Part is also the design difference, the bolos and kukris are thick and stiff, as well as have both lateral and distal taper, while the machetes are flexible, and made from uniform thickness spring stock. IMHO, the flexure during chopping, combined with the uniform thickness and hardness encourages metal fatigue. I guess that I should explain that I view a "machete" as your standard Latin type (though I know there are other styles) affair that you pick up at the store, and it is inexpensive, thin, softer steel to keep from chipping on rocks and give ease of sharpening, and mainly used on lighter stuff. FYI, you HAVE to look into Marbles machete (made in El Salvador, I think, but sold in America), this is the machete people in Central and South America ask you to bring to them. They are sold at Smokeymountain knifeworks (SMKW) for around $15. What makes them so good, you ask? GREAT convex edges, steel, and they come with a fantastic sheath and sharpening stone! Yes, some come with the tacky orange covering, but it does offer protection. I was more talking about thicker bolo, kukri, parang, golok, barong and the like made from Kabar, Ontario, Condor. Aranyik (Miles is the owner) has blades flown in from vetted smiths in Thailand, he then puts handles and a killer edge on them, though I believe the blades are forged and quenched by hand (like you were mentioning)...and they are a KILLER product. Bottom line, do a bit or research and buy from a reputable company and you should be getting some good stuff, as we are kind of in a golden age of unique and fascinating blade shapes from many different cultures around the world. I think I'm talking to much.
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Post by bluetrain on May 2, 2018 11:50:43 GMT
A machete doesn't really have a standard form, I'd say, although some may have other names more commonly used, like cane cutter. The same could be said for hammers. I have about six hammers, mostly inherited, with one weighing about as much as a table knife. But whatever a machete is, you know it when you see one. Same with kukris, probably. I wonder if they have to be Nepalese-made (or Indian, to stretch a point)? You know, for authenticity's sake.
Do you suppose any were ever made in Solingen, in the same way real Bowie knives were made in Sheffield? For that matter, are blades still made in Sheffield?
I just noticed also that the Ex-Gurkha Khukuri House has products they describe as "Machete Kukris." They are essentially kitchen cleavers.
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