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Post by Pino on Feb 24, 2018 22:32:29 GMT
Pre-WW1 Ottoman Empire was a pretty overlooked but nonetheless very interesting element; it just came out of years of conflict in the Balkans which drained her ressources but its army was battle-hardened and undergoing several reforms based on French and German military standards (and the British for a short time before them) so that by the time WW1 started, unlike some other nations, its troops already wore practical modern uniforms and equipment. This is a pretty rare and underrated pattern and most of the info I found is from the excellent site on Ottoman mounted troops. But First: The Sword  In 1909 orders were placed with German sword makers for new a standard cavalry sabre. These were made with a steel half bowl guard with folded edges; the front guard was pierced/cut out with the five-point star and crescent symbol of the Ottoman Empire. The grips are dark brown checkered composite fibre/bakelite, with a thumb groove to the top and held to the full tang by two rivets. In accordance with the standard of German edged weaponry, the blade was a curved pipeback type with spear point. Detail of hilt and tang.   The 1909 Sword's steel scabbard, in typical German fashion, had a single fixed ring on a band with an inner square-shaped side ring. As was the case with all other nations, such a sword was designed to be carried strapped to the saddle.  Some versions are fitted with two (each side) fixed strap rings, on each side of the mouth, like the British cavalry models or had instead a bronze 'L' shaped frog-button, which allowed these to be carried on a sword-belt frog (like older style infantry officer belts). The 1909 Swords were made mainly by Carl Eickhorn and the stamps were always written in Ottoman script on the side of the blade, and just below was the Ottoman date. Above all this were the Ottoman individual weapon numbers, which were added after acceptance into the Imperial Arsenal. The back of the blade were stamped with a Crescent Moon inspection stamp, which is also encountered in the front of the scabbard.  On my specimen you can see the weapon number ١٩ ٤١ which stands for 1941 above the (Ottoman script) Carl Eickhorn trademark and just below it is the date ۱ ۳۲۵ (1325 = Ottoman year 1909).  Pipeback blade  The 1909 Models are supposed to have steel guards; however a small number had brass guards: - Swords numbered up to # 740, had full sheet brass bowl guard, and brass handle metal. - Swords numbered after this weapon were of steel, indicating a design change early on in the contract. A total of 10,000 swords were likely delivered prior to WW1, to fully re-equip the Ottoman regular cavalry (intended for the troopers in each squadron: 88 men x 116 squadrons).  AnalysisThis is a very nice sword to handle and there is something about its rough looks that speaks charm to me. When looking at it you can immediately see a resemblance to late British cavalry swords, mainly the 1882-85 model as both have the same type of cut-out basket hilt, full tang blade, rivets on grip and (very) minimalistic pommel cap. What is interesting (or confusing) about all this is that with this model, the Germans managed to create a British type sword when at almost the same time the British created their 1908 pattern, which was directly influenced by a German prototype! The irony  SpexBlade: 33'' / 84cm Sword: 38.5'' / 98cm Total: 40'' / 102cm POB: 6'' / 15cm Weight: 2.03lbs /1007gr  |
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Post by Pino on Feb 25, 2018 1:12:25 GMT
In order to rock on even more, just added the smashing Ottoman Hit Song Gâfil ne bilir!
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 25, 2018 1:15:13 GMT
Nice. I always liked the way this pattern looked, and I'm happy to here it's a nice handling piece. Given it's dimensions and era I had (now I assume, wrongfully) presumed it would handle similar to the Spanish 1895. Cool to see a good writeup on it. The numbers interesting, and now I want one with a brass guard.
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Post by Pino on Feb 26, 2018 2:08:52 GMT
Hey thanks for your comment, the brass guard variant must be extremely rare as I never even saw one, not even in photos.
The 1895 is notorious for its bad handling and thank the gods there are not many swords that suck as bad as that one!
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 26, 2018 3:57:13 GMT
Poo, I'm assuming they got used up mostly then.  Also, my choice of ottoman/turkic music |
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pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Feb 26, 2018 8:12:37 GMT
Thanks Pino.
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Post by likehotbutter on Feb 26, 2018 12:54:21 GMT
Nice one
Many fakes out there, good to see legit markings up close!
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Post by bfoo2 on Mar 9, 2018 18:45:02 GMT
Nice one Many fakes out there, good to see legit markings up close! Really? I was not aware of any reproductions of this pattern (I have this sword on my "safe" list of patterns where I don't have to scrutinize for repro-ness lol). Can you send a link for a repro for reference please? Pino how does this compare to the Argentine pipeback swords? I always assumed that the Turkish used the same blade as the Argentine, but I never verified. |
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Post by Pino on Mar 10, 2018 2:29:12 GMT
Bfoo: I can't tell, as I've yet to get my hands on an 1898 Argentine trooper sword...slippery bastards these ones...The Argentina officer sword, from what I remember, was lighter but I doubt it could outperform the 1909 in terms of strength and field durability. Funny you ask about that pattern; among my next topics I'll deal with two military tested pipeback models that I could compare with the 1909: the German WW1 ''Aushhilf'' sabre and the rare pattern Saxon KD 91, the sword that spawned the Argentina sword.  |
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Post by bfoo2 on Mar 10, 2018 3:27:19 GMT
Bfoo: I can't tell, as I've yet to get my hands on an 1898 Argentine trooper sword...slippery bastards these ones...The Argentina officer sword, from what I remember, was lighter but I doubt it could outperform the 1909 in terms of strength and field durability. Oops... I had one and sold it about a year ago. There were a bunch floating around on eBay not so long ago but they've all seemed to have disappeared. I suspect that swords migrate in flocks like birds. Nothing, nothing, nothing... then 5 show up on eBay at the same time... I found the Argentine trooper's to be an indifferent sword. It was too heavy and unwieldy to function as a close-in melee weapon, but too short and light to function as a pointy hand-lance type of shock weapon. I felt like it couldn't make up it's mind what it wanted to be. On the other hand, Dave Kelly spoke highly of his trooper's in his "pipeback sabre" review from way back so here we are again on the subjectivity of the matter. |
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Post by bfoo2 on Mar 10, 2018 3:33:46 GMT
Hey thanks for your comment, the brass guard variant must be extremely rare as I never even saw one, not even in photos. The 1895 is notorious for its bad handling and thank the gods there are not many swords that suck as bad as that one! I think I've found an example of the brass-hilt. Images from greatscottantiques.uk  This one has a bakelite grip and backstrap similar to the Prussian M1811 artillery variants (backstrap also of brass). Blade is not a pipeback, but an etched "Wilkinson" style (possibly officer?). Etchings are Turkish (crescent, artillery crest). I must say, rare as it may be, the brass guard is fugly. Not sure if this is THE brass-guard variant or some DIY/Frankenstein repair, but it fits the description Attachments    |
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 10, 2018 4:06:04 GMT
I don't care what it is, I WANT it. Lol, seriously though that looks bad-a.
Edit: nvm, just checked out his site and there's some weird stuff with his currency conversion. Magically added 60 USD to the Austrian M1861 when you click the convert button.
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Post by bfoo2 on Mar 10, 2018 6:20:17 GMT
I don't care what it is, I WANT it. Lol, seriously though that looks bad-a. Edit: nvm, just checked out his site and there's some weird stuff with his currency conversion. Magically added 60 USD to the Austrian M1861 when you click the convert button. Also the grip is cracked. Could probably stick it back with epoxy, but I have concerns about whether the tang is structurally sound after such trauma. The problem with shipping from England is that ya gotta eat the crappy conversion rate AND the shipping (which may be what the $60 represents?) Not worth it unless you're getting something expensive so the cost of shipping becomes proportionally less |
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Post by likehotbutter on Mar 10, 2018 15:29:42 GMT
Nice one Many fakes out there, good to see legit markings up close! Really? I was not aware of any reproductions of this pattern (I have this sword on my "safe" list of patterns where I don't have to scrutinize for repro-ness lol). Can you send a link for a repro for reference please? Pino how does this compare to the Argentine pipeback swords? I always assumed that the Turkish used the same blade as the Argentine, but I never verified. Not so much spanking new indian stuff but dealer mix/match creations |
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Post by bfoo2 on Mar 10, 2018 18:08:49 GMT
Not so much spanking new indian stuff but dealer mix/match creations ...but how? The entire thing is riveted together like the British cavalry swords. It's not like you can unscrew it and take it apart like IKEA furniture! Yes, Indian repros.... a pity they can't seem to make round pipebacks |
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Post by Afoo on Mar 10, 2018 19:08:34 GMT
Thanks for the writeup! Its a pattern I was always interested in, but never found one for the right price. In terms of handling, does it feel more like a thrusting sword or a bashing sword? The grip looks designed for thrusting, but the blade looks stout and short. As bfoo2 alluded to, our Argentine 1889 suffered from a split personality - wonder whether they have managed to rectify this with the Ottoman version |
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Post by bfoo2 on Mar 10, 2018 19:26:57 GMT
Thanks for the writeup! Its a pattern I was always interested in, but never found one for the right price. In terms of handling, does it feel more like a thrusting sword or a bashing sword? The grip looks designed for thrusting, but the blade looks stout and short. As bfoo2 alluded to, our Argentine 1889 suffered from a split personality - wonder whether they have managed to rectify this with the Ottoman version Oversized grip on the Argie gives a solid hammergrip but impairs fine point control (at least from my experience). Turkish one here doesn't seem to suffer from that issue. Shaped more like a fencing foil Pino may be worthwhile comparing to the British 1908/1912? At least on the basis of the ergonomic grip shape |
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Post by Pino on Mar 10, 2018 19:39:55 GMT
Bfoo, my friend, that franken sword is certainly not the 1909 brass version: the hilt and blade are different and are not marked with the correct serial numbers (1 to 740), field trooper swords were also never etched like that.
There exists a dovehead Turkish NCO/officer sword model (very easily identified by the ring on the pommel nut) and this is it but with an added brass panel.
Afoo, I'd say more inclined towards thrusts but even though it is German made (medium-heavy grade) and thanks to the form and weight of the guard, it is balanced enough to perform good cuts...one that can cleave a skull in two with minimum effort.
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Post by Pino on Mar 10, 2018 19:56:29 GMT
Thanks for the writeup! Its a pattern I was always interested in, but never found one for the right price. In terms of handling, does it feel more like a thrusting sword or a bashing sword? The grip looks designed for thrusting, but the blade looks stout and short. As bfoo2 alluded to, our Argentine 1889 suffered from a split personality - wonder whether they have managed to rectify this with the Ottoman version (at least from my experience). Turkish one here doesn't seem to suffer from that issue. Shaped more like a fencing foil Pino may be worthwhile comparing to the British 1908/1912? At least on the basis of the ergonomic grip shape My thoughts exactly on why the 1909 feels better: the weight distribution of the guard allows for better handling than the bigger German guards. I'm not super comfortable in comparing the British 1908 and the Turkish since they are different animals; one is pure thrust and the other cut-thrust designed and shorter, a bit like comparing a Barrett sniper rifle with an AK47. As far as the ergonomic grip shape is concerned the 1908 is flatly defeated, too cumbersome and clumsy. The Turk's handle is still something I'm not used to but clearly not ''in the way'' as the British. Between the two I'd simply go to war with the 1909; I like my 1908 but it's just too... |
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Post by atsintzas on Oct 28, 2022 16:33:59 GMT
Pre-WW1 Ottoman Empire was a pretty overlooked but nonetheless very interesting element; it just came out of years of conflict in the Balkans which drained her ressources but its army was battle-hardened and undergoing several reforms based on French and German military standards (and the British for a short time before them) so that by the time WW1 started, unlike some other nations, its troops already wore practical modern uniforms and equipment. This is a pretty rare and underrated pattern and most of the info I found is from the excellent site on Ottoman mounted troops. But First: The Sword In 1909 orders were placed with German sword makers for new a standard cavalry sabre. These were made with a steel half bowl guard with folded edges; the front guard was pierced/cut out with the five-point star and crescent symbol of the Ottoman Empire. The grips are dark brown checkered composite fibre/bakelite, with a thumb groove to the top and held to the full tang by two rivets. In accordance with the standard of German edged weaponry, the blade was a curved pipeback type with spear point. Detail of hilt and tang. The 1909 Sword's steel scabbard, in typical German fashion, had a single fixed ring on a band with an inner square-shaped side ring. As was the case with all other nations, such a sword was designed to be carried strapped to the saddle. Some versions are fitted with two (each side) fixed strap rings, on each side of the mouth, like the British cavalry models or had instead a bronze 'L' shaped frog-button, which allowed these to be carried on a sword-belt frog (like older style infantry officer belts). The 1909 Swords were made mainly by Carl Eickhorn and the stamps were always written in Ottoman script on the side of the blade, and just below was the Ottoman date. Above all this were the Ottoman individual weapon numbers, which were added after acceptance into the Imperial Arsenal. The back of the blade were stamped with a Crescent Moon inspection stamp, which is also encountered in the front of the scabbard. On my specimen you can see the weapon number ١٩ ٤١ which stands for 1941 above the (Ottoman script) Carl Eickhorn trademark and just below it is the date ۱ ۳۲۵ (1325 = Ottoman year 1909). Pipeback blade The 1909 Models are supposed to have steel guards; however a small number had brass guards: - Swords numbered up to # 740, had full sheet brass bowl guard, and brass handle metal. - Swords numbered after this weapon were of steel, indicating a design change early on in the contract. A total of 10,000 swords were likely delivered prior to WW1, to fully re-equip the Ottoman regular cavalry (intended for the troopers in each squadron: 88 men x 116 squadrons). AnalysisThis is a very nice sword to handle and there is something about its rough looks that speaks charm to me. When looking at it you can immediately see a resemblance to late British cavalry swords, mainly the 1882-85 model as both have the same type of cut-out basket hilt, full tang blade, rivets on grip and (very) minimalistic pommel cap. What is interesting (or confusing) about all this is that with this model, the Germans managed to create a British type sword when at almost the same time the British created their 1908 pattern, which was directly influenced by a German prototype! The irony SpexBlade: 33'' / 84cm Sword: 38.5'' / 98cm Total: 40'' / 102cm POB: 6'' / 15cm Weight: 2.03lbs /1007gr |
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