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Post by kalkikrosah on Feb 13, 2018 4:49:59 GMT
I was googling through the internet earlier about why Condor machetes have a hole in their blade and if there is a practical purpose behind the hole (Spoiler alert: its a trademarking device, like Spyderco, nothing more) and came across a knife maker I never heard of before: Rockstead. Rockstead is a Japanese knife maker who specializes in these perfect mirror polish knives made from high end hybrid carbon/stainless steels and a HRc ranging from 65 to 67 depending on the steel they use. Out of curiosity I googled to see what the going price for one of their knives were and came across this: www.knifecenter.com/series/rockstead-knives/rockstead-donrockstead.jp/about/I can admire the craftsmanship and beauty of their work but the price tag associated with it seems high to me. Granted, this particular knife is one of the more expensive models but they don't go lower than $900. I'm just a blade enthusiast so I don't have the perspective of the seller but would this be a fair price for the quality you are getting? I made a poll to go with the thread for quick responses.
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Post by MOK on Feb 13, 2018 5:01:44 GMT
Well, they're collector's knives - investments, not tools - and collectibles are "worth" exactly whatever someone's willing to pay for them, so...
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 13, 2018 10:55:48 GMT
I stumbled over these a while back, and while I'd never pay the asking price, clearly there are those who will. Otherwise, the line wouldn't exist, or the prices would have gotten lower by now.
I'm not the one to decide what these are "worth" or not, but unless some generous soul gifts me one, I don't see myself acquiring any.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 13, 2018 11:59:57 GMT
Well, they're collector's knives - investments, not tools - and collectibles are "worth" exactly whatever someone's willing to pay for them, so... ^ what he said. I don't care for "collector" knives at all. They are expensive becuase they have additional polish fiinishes and take more time to construct- but they aren't meant to be used. So you end up paying top dollar for really nice materials and finishes- only to have it sit on your dresser or stay in a box tucked away somewhere. I don't understand that. If all you want to do is look at knife, then buy a good looking knife for $5 at a truckstop and save yourself some money. Likewise, if you are looking for a field knife or an EDC, then the final finish and polish isn't of great concern so you can still by a lower cost knife that is made of good materials and will last you for a very long time for under $200. In my view, a knife is a tool and a "pretty" knife is one that has a stained blade, worn hand grips, and perhaps even a repaired chip on the edge. Something that can tell a story about it's life and the life of it's user. I have an 80/20 rule for knives- 80% of the cost should be reflected in the quality of the steel, the other 20% in the fit and finish. For example, take a $1,000 knife. I ask myself, would I pay $800 for the steel? Is that piece of steel worth $800 if it was laying on a table by itself after being forged and hardened? If I say "yes", the it's a good deal, if I say "no", then I move on. Of course, it's a lot easier for a $100 knife, but the principle is exactly the same. Is the steel alone worth 80% of the asking price- yes or no? But that's my opinion on the subject so take it for what it's worth.
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Post by pellius on Feb 16, 2018 1:50:54 GMT
Way way out of even my imagination's price range. That is Longship Armoury territory. However, if I could spend like that for a collector knife, I'd prolly go for something more like: www.casknives.com/portal/Just mtc.
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 16, 2018 4:54:23 GMT
Am I blind or are there no prices on those? Some are pretty nice.
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Post by pellius on Feb 16, 2018 6:16:44 GMT
If you mean the Cas Sobral knives and sheaths, actual prices are a little elusive. He has (deservedly) gotten a lot of social media attention, and now he's apparently famous and booked solid for commissions up to around a year out. Some online stores have old ads pricing Cas knives around the $1,000 mark, but they are all sold out. The impression I've gotten is that the nice ones (with a sheath) go for $2-3k. No knife is that valuable to me, so I never got a firm price. Amazing work, though; really very beautiful stuff. He seems to be very responsive to inquiries. m.facebook.com/cas.sobral/
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christain
Member
It's the steel on the inside that counts.
Posts: 2,835
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Post by christain on Feb 16, 2018 10:11:09 GMT
$3800 for a mediocre-looking camp knife? I have some ocean-front property I'd like to sell...cheap!
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Post by MOK on Feb 16, 2018 12:16:44 GMT
$3800 for a mediocre-looking camp knife? I have some ocean-front property I'd like to sell...cheap! What might be cheap for a knife isn't necessarily so as far as ocean front properties go...
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Post by howler on Feb 16, 2018 22:49:35 GMT
Well, they're collector's knives - investments, not tools - and collectibles are "worth" exactly whatever someone's willing to pay for them, so... ^ what he said. I don't care for "collector" knives at all. They are expensive becuase they have additional polish fiinishes and take more time to construct- but they aren't meant to be used. So you end up paying top dollar for really nice materials and finishes- only to have it sit on your dresser or stay in a box tucked away somewhere. I don't understand that. If all you want to do is look at knife, then buy a good looking knife for $5 at a truckstop and save yourself some money. Likewise, if you are looking for a field knife or an EDC, then the final finish and polish isn't of great concern so you can still by a lower cost knife that is made of good materials and will last you for a very long time for under $200. In my view, a knife is a tool and a "pretty" knife is one that has a stained blade, worn hand grips, and perhaps even a repaired chip on the edge. Something that can tell a story about it's life and the life of it's user. I have an 80/20 rule for knives- 80% of the cost should be reflected in the quality of the steel, the other 20% in the fit and finish. For example, take a $1,000 knife. I ask myself, would I pay $800 for the steel? Is that piece of steel worth $800 if it was laying on a table by itself after being forged and hardened? If I say "yes", the it's a good deal, if I say "no", then I move on. Of course, it's a lot easier for a $100 knife, but the principle is exactly the same. Is the steel alone worth 80% of the asking price- yes or no? But that's my opinion on the subject so take it for what it's worth. Yup, very often the "the deal is the steel". You can tweak the percentages, importance wise, but unless the form, fit and finish is woeful to the point of negatively affecting function, the steel is most of the ballgame.
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Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Feb 16, 2018 23:08:21 GMT
I could get a new car for that price.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 17, 2018 3:23:59 GMT
^ what he said. I don't care for "collector" knives at all. They are expensive becuase they have additional polish fiinishes and take more time to construct- but they aren't meant to be used. So you end up paying top dollar for really nice materials and finishes- only to have it sit on your dresser or stay in a box tucked away somewhere. I don't understand that. If all you want to do is look at knife, then buy a good looking knife for $5 at a truckstop and save yourself some money. Likewise, if you are looking for a field knife or an EDC, then the final finish and polish isn't of great concern so you can still by a lower cost knife that is made of good materials and will last you for a very long time for under $200. In my view, a knife is a tool and a "pretty" knife is one that has a stained blade, worn hand grips, and perhaps even a repaired chip on the edge. Something that can tell a story about it's life and the life of it's user. I have an 80/20 rule for knives- 80% of the cost should be reflected in the quality of the steel, the other 20% in the fit and finish. For example, take a $1,000 knife. I ask myself, would I pay $800 for the steel? Is that piece of steel worth $800 if it was laying on a table by itself after being forged and hardened? If I say "yes", the it's a good deal, if I say "no", then I move on. Of course, it's a lot easier for a $100 knife, but the principle is exactly the same. Is the steel alone worth 80% of the asking price- yes or no? But that's my opinion on the subject so take it for what it's worth. Yup, very often the "the deal is the steel". You can tweak the percentages, importance wise, but unless the form, fit and finish is woeful to the point of negatively affecting function, the steel is most of the ballgame. It's all about personal preference. If buying a "collector" knife brings a person enjoyment, then I say more power to them. For me, I view a knife as a functional tool, so I heavily weight it's "value" on the quality of the metal. The way I see it is that I can always change the scales, or make a custom sheath later on, but I can never change the metal of the blade no matter what I do. So from my point of view, it's primarily all about the steel and only a little bit about the rest of it. As stated, everybody has a different percentage balance of what is of value to them. Some weight the value in terms of fit and finish along with exotic materials or by the knife being made by a famous blacksmith or such. No right or wrong way. But to answer if something is a "good value for x dollars" is difficult to answer because of so many variables in the equation.
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Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Feb 17, 2018 8:49:52 GMT
Yup, very often the "the deal is the steel". You can tweak the percentages, importance wise, but unless the form, fit and finish is woeful to the point of negatively affecting function, the steel is most of the ballgame. It's all about personal preference. If buying a "collector" knife brings a person enjoyment, then I say more power to them. For me, I view a knife as a functional tool, so I heavily weight it's "value" on the quality of the metal. The way I see it is that I can always change the scales, or make a custom sheath later on, but I can never change the metal of the blade no matter what I do. So from my point of view, it's primarily all about the steel and only a little bit about the rest of it. As stated, everybody has a different percentage balance of what is of value to them. Some weight the value in terms of fit and finish along with exotic materials or by the knife being made by a famous blacksmith or such. No right or wrong way. But to answer if something is a "good value for x dollars" is difficult to answer because of so many variables in the equation. I kinda see this as the rolex of knives. Not particularly more useful than a more affordable version, but something to flex with at people with less money. A status symbol, if you will
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Post by kalkikrosah on Feb 17, 2018 15:59:19 GMT
Personally I feel like when a knife starts getting into this range you really start thinking about all the other stuff you can buy with that kind of money. Off the top of my head I can think to buy an engagement ring, a down payment on Manhattan studio apartment, a high end gaming laptop, 3 Albion swords, a used car, a bedroom set and the list goes on.
It is expected to pay more for quality but I think there's a point where "good enough" gets reached and the quality no longer becomes a concern. When it gets into that range I expect the steel to be this ultra-rare space steel that holds a good edge, is resilient to fracturing and self-cleans itself. Or at the very least a lighsaber. When the price tag starts getting unreasonable my expectations try to match how unreasonable the price is.
I am extremely skeptical that a $3800 knife sells at all but if its up there then there probably is someone out there that has to be buying it. As far as I can see the only true benefit to such a knife is that it is so sharp that even on a microscopic level there is no rough patches. That's cool to brag about but what more can you do with it? Any blade collector knows that the more you use a blade the duller it gets. And an edge that fine is not maintainable. Using it would significantly devalue it. You would have to never use it in order to keep the edge that fine. It would be relegated to being a wall hanger because of how high maintenance it is. And then you would have to drop even more money to buy a protective case and then be extra careful when cleaning it every few months... that's too much hassle. I'll stick with the $200-$500 knives if I want to splurge on something nice.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 17, 2018 16:58:01 GMT
The issues I have with Rolex, Rockstead, or any other high end "collectable" manufacturer is the fact that even though their products use top quality materials and craftsmanship, they aren't really made to be used. The moment they are used (especially a knife) they lose most of their value and become just another watch, knife, or whatever. So how then do you justify the cost of a $3800 knife when, the moment it gets its first scratch on the blade, it's now worth $400? Doesn't that mean that it was only really worth $400 to begin with when all is said and done?
As far as the Rockstead is concerned, I see nothing about it that to me justifies the $3800 price tag. It's a good looking knife, but it's not famous, it's not from a museum collection or belonged to somebody important like Bruce Lee. Nor is it a rare antique that would justify the cost through historic value or scarcity. I'm not feeling it.
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Post by Opferous on Feb 17, 2018 17:09:53 GMT
I have a Rockstead and I rotate it into my carry, resale value be damned. And I have other high end production, midtech, and custom knives that I treat the same way. Collecting is all about fun, and you find particular aspects in higher end pieces that you don't find in standard production. It's the same with swords. You buy what you can afford and save up for better if you reach that stage in your collection. Obviously the situation is different for someone looking purely for a tool.
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Post by howler on Feb 17, 2018 20:47:10 GMT
Yup, very often the "the deal is the steel". You can tweak the percentages, importance wise, but unless the form, fit and finish is woeful to the point of negatively affecting function, the steel is most of the ballgame. It's all about personal preference. If buying a "collector" knife brings a person enjoyment, then I say more power to them. For me, I view a knife as a functional tool, so I heavily weight it's "value" on the quality of the metal. The way I see it is that I can always change the scales, or make a custom sheath later on, but I can never change the metal of the blade no matter what I do. So from my point of view, it's primarily all about the steel and only a little bit about the rest of it. As stated, everybody has a different percentage balance of what is of value to them. Some weight the value in terms of fit and finish along with exotic materials or by the knife being made by a famous blacksmith or such. No right or wrong way. But to answer if something is a "good value for x dollars" is difficult to answer because of so many variables in the equation. You are right on the steel thing, because why dress up a pig by using crappy steel but good fit, finish, handle materials, etc...
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Post by howler on Feb 17, 2018 20:52:40 GMT
I have a Rockstead and I rotate it into my carry, resale value be damned. And I have other high end production, midtech, and custom knives that I treat the same way. Collecting is all about fun, and you find particular aspects in higher end pieces that you don't find in standard production. It's the same with swords. You buy what you can afford and save up for better if you reach that stage in your collection. Obviously the situation is different for someone looking purely for a tool. There are all types of collectors to be sure. The "Sebenza thing" is most notable in the folding knife world.
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Post by howler on Feb 17, 2018 21:07:24 GMT
Personally I feel like when a knife starts getting into this range you really start thinking about all the other stuff you can buy with that kind of money. Off the top of my head I can think to buy an engagement ring, a down payment on Manhattan studio apartment, a high end gaming laptop, 3 Albion swords, a used car, a bedroom set and the list goes on. It is expected to pay more for quality but I think there's a point where "good enough" gets reached and the quality no longer becomes a concern. When it gets into that range I expect the steel to be this ultra-rare space steel that holds a good edge, is resilient to fracturing and self-cleans itself. Or at the very least a lighsaber. When the price tag starts getting unreasonable my expectations try to match how unreasonable the price is. I am extremely skeptical that a $3800 knife sells at all but if its up there then there probably is someone out there that has to be buying it. As far as I can see the only true benefit to such a knife is that it is so sharp that even on a microscopic level there is no rough patches. That's cool to brag about but what more can you do with it? Any blade collector knows that the more you use a blade the duller it gets. And an edge that fine is not maintainable. Using it would significantly devalue it. You would have to never use it in order to keep the edge that fine. It would be relegated to being a wall hanger because of how high maintenance it is. And then you would have to drop even more money to buy a protective case and then be extra careful when cleaning it every few months... that's too much hassle. I'll stick with the $200-$500 knives if I want to splurge on something nice. I was with ya until engagement ring. Run, don't walk to the cutlery shop. If you have the ring, melt it down (Mount Doom style) and make yourself another knife if ya can.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 18, 2018 1:04:50 GMT
For $3800 I could buy 100 Spyderco folding knives wholesale at $38 each, then flip them for $55 retail and make $1700 clean profit, then buy a Benchmade Skinner for $140 and use the $1460 to buy a really nice sword ($100 goes to taking the wife out to a nice restaurant) without having to explain to the wife why $3800 is missing from the account and I only have one small knife to show for it. I could use the money spent on a Rockstead to get a good knife and sword (and nice dinner for the wife) basically for free.
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