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Post by legacyofthesword on Jan 20, 2018 0:34:47 GMT
I've always called all wavy bladed Southeast Asian sword/daggers a Kris... But recently I read about the Kris being a dagger, while the term Kalis refers to a bigger weapon. Is this so?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 20, 2018 1:07:03 GMT
There are two weapons with the same name: the Indonesian keris and the Moro kris. Written as "keris" in Bahasa Indonesia, but appears in English as "kris", "creese", "keris", and many other variations. In modern writing, usually "keris" or "kris". The Indonesian keris is generally a dagger, and for the last century or so has been much more a dress item, ritual/ceremonial object, and art object/collector's item than a weapon. With the transition from weapon to dress item can a change from blades being glued into hilts with resin to friction fit (sometimes with a little cloth or string wrapped around the tang). The Moro kris is a much larger and heavier cut-and-thrust sword (700-800g and 18-22" is common - this is about the size and weight of a Roman gladius). Hilts are firmly attached, at minimum glued with resin. There are often metal straps running along the front and/or back of the grip, attached to the base of the blade by the stirrups, and attached to the hilt by the wrapping. This weapon is also called a keris, usually "kris" in English. "Kalis" is just "keris" with an R->L sound shift. As well as kris and kalis, this weapon is also often called a "sundang" (just generically "sword" IIRC). Both the Indonesian and Moro version can be wavy. Both can also be straight. "Wavy" doesn't make them kris - the most important feature is the asymmetric base of the blade. There are various wavy-blades knives, daggers, and swords from Indonesia and the Philippines that aren't considered to be krisses (but you will still sometimes see them called things like "Luzon kris"). E.g., www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=6698A notable non-kris often-wavy knife/dagger is the gunong/punal, supposedly developed as a knife-sized version of the Moro kris. It's a Moro weapon, and can be either wavy or straight: therionarms.com/sold/therionarms_c447.htmlen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunong
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 20, 2018 1:31:09 GMT
Nomenclature is a fun game to fry one's brain playing. Similar weapons, spread across multiple ethnographic groups, often each with their own language, later cataloged by foreign folk, throws the whole idea of classification into the winds.
I'm gonna go with what Time said, because I trust him to know his stuff, but I had to share the frustration of the original query as it's one that plagues me, as well.
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Post by Croccifixio on Jan 20, 2018 3:22:01 GMT
Was gonna answer but Timo already did better than I ever could.
The dagger-sized wavy-blade you see pop up is often a Gunong/Punyal
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Post by legacyofthesword on Jan 20, 2018 4:52:10 GMT
So basically the same weapon (with the same name), but the Moro type is bigger (and more battle-ready/functional) than the Indonesian type?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 20, 2018 5:26:38 GMT
Yes.
I'd call them different weapons, but that's just a matter of terminology and taxonomy. They evolved from the same ancestor, and the oldest Moro krisses that have survived are usually smaller and more delicate than later ones.
Back where the Indonesian keris was used as a weapon, they were thrusting daggers. Part of the evolution of the Moro kris was its transformation into a cut-thrust sword (usually used for cutting). The Indonesian version might have been a thrusting weapon from the beginning (it's been suggested that the original prototypes was a stingray barb dagger).
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Post by legacyofthesword on Jan 20, 2018 6:00:19 GMT
Mmm, interesting. So the Moro variety started as a thrusting dagger... When did the transformation to a cut-and-thrust type happen?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 20, 2018 6:16:10 GMT
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Post by Croccifixio on Jan 20, 2018 12:50:18 GMT
Older Moro Kris/Kalis are smaller and often have sharper angled tips. As the use of the kris grew more widespread in the Sulu peninsula, my theory is that it was adapted for the specific fighting style of the local tribes there who often used cutting-oriented short swords alongside shields. That’s just my theory though.
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