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Post by ambulocetus on Dec 28, 2017 5:15:22 GMT
Does anybody here who does iaido or kenjutsu have an unokubi zukuri or a naginata naoshi that they practice with? How do you do noto? I would think that your sensei probably won't let you use one in the dojo, but if you have one I'm sure you've played around with it at home. I'm thinking of getting one, but I'd like to know what I'm getting into first. I don't see any problem with batto, but I would imagine that noto is awkward?
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Post by skane on Dec 28, 2017 5:28:00 GMT
Mune on unokubi sugata is not sharpened; doing noto pretty much feels like a shobu to me. I had a Huawei unokubi and still have a Raptor unokubi, I haven't had any issues with noto for those swords.
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Post by ambulocetus on Dec 28, 2017 5:51:05 GMT
How about a naginata naoshi or a moroha zukuri? I probably wouldn't get one of those, but I am curious how people practice with them.
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Post by zabazagobo on Dec 28, 2017 7:34:04 GMT
It really boils down to how you practice noto. If you wouldn't mind describing how you're accustomed to performing noto I could chime in with what you could expect.
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Post by ambulocetus on Dec 28, 2017 13:34:00 GMT
I recently switched to Mugai Ryu,and my new sensei wants us to keep thumb and forefinger of left hand curled around koiguchi, while sliding the mune across the web of your hand along almost the whole length of the blade. My old style had a couple different ways depending on the kata. Also my new sensei frowns upon using shinken in class, but my old sensei encouraged it for black belts.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 17:28:44 GMT
It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever to slide a sharp edge across any part of your hand, so you shouldn't be using that kind of geometry for that practice. Isn't this common sense?
Otherwise it shouldn't make a difference.
It isn't all that hard to do noto without left hand blade contact, but that doesn't matter if you are supposed to have contact in your tradition.
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Post by zabazagobo on Dec 28, 2017 17:58:59 GMT
I recently switched to Mugai Ryu,and my new sensei wants us to keep thumb and forefinger of left hand curled around koiguchi, while sliding the mune across the web of your hand along almost the whole length of the blade. My old style had a couple different ways depending on the kata. Also my new sensei frowns upon using shinken in class, but my old sensei encouraged it for black belts. Using a blade with a very thin mune ('false edge' is a fair description) in that style of noto can feel very awkward. With unokubi, you'll have to become accustomed to how there's really significant shifts in how your skin perceives the mune, but once you reach the kissaki where it flares out similarly to many shinogi zukuri variants it sort of becomes business as usual and finishing the exercise is similar. I practiced mostly with unokubi and kanmuri otoshi blades for a couple years and while I didn't like the sensation of the noto with either, I found your method easier to perform with unokubi as the kanmuri-otoshi, like a finely tapered shobu, has a rather needle-like point that is not very friendly to that kind of noto. For that reason, I perform noto in ways that do not have the mune slide, but that's personal preference. One thing to keep in mind is that as the mune is pretty thin it will be liable to take more significant nicks from parrying or blocking other blades. These nicks can become rather unpleasant doing noto in the manner you described, so to avoid annoyance (or a light cut) keep on an eye on those if you do any sort of contact exercise with them.
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Post by zabazagobo on Dec 28, 2017 18:02:27 GMT
It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever to slide a sharp edge across any part of your hand, so you shouldn't be using that kind of geometry for that practice. Isn't this common sense? Otherwise it shouldn't make a difference. It isn't all that hard to do noto without left hand blade contact, but that doesn't matter if you are supposed to have contact in your tradition. Yeah the thought of attempting noto in this manner with a moroha-zukuri blade is not a pleasant one. I argue the emphasis with noto on making contact with the left hand is a bit overdone, but that's up to stylistic preference.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 21:32:01 GMT
It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever to slide a sharp edge across any part of your hand, so you shouldn't be using that kind of geometry for that practice. Isn't this common sense? Otherwise it shouldn't make a difference. It isn't all that hard to do noto without left hand blade contact, but that doesn't matter if you are supposed to have contact in your tradition. Yeah the thought of attempting noto in this manner with a moroha-zukuri blade is not a pleasant one. I argue the emphasis with noto on making contact with the left hand is a bit overdone, but that's up to stylistic preference. You had a great point about using the mune for blocks - you'll end up with a saw on your hand / the koiguchi. Hard to argue with stylistic nuances like that. What we like or dislike can be reasons to pursue or avoid a tradition, but if you are going to do X then it behooves you to use the tools and methods that are advocated in X.
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Post by ambulocetus on Dec 29, 2017 4:40:24 GMT
In Mugai Ryu a couple of the kata have blocking with the mune, but in my old style, Tenshin Ryu, we blocked with the shinogi. Block isn't really a good word for it though, I guess parry would be closer. The thinking is that the mune is soft and a cut from another blade could dig in to the metal, but the shinogi is structurally stronger and it would be harder to cut through a blade from the side than it would from the top. Back to moroha zukuri, I guess you would do noto the same way you do a chinese sword. Kinda hold it sideways and put the point in horizontally. Does anybody here practice with one?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 4:51:26 GMT
I don't, but I've worked out the positioning to be able to drop the kissaki into the saya without having to ride any part of the sword along the koiguchi, mune, shinogi, whatever. The sword's length is a constant, so you have to work out your stance, the position of the saya, and the extension and angle of the arm. It really isn't that hard, once you work it out a handful of times you could do it blindfolded (literally).
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Post by ambulocetus on Dec 29, 2017 5:02:57 GMT
Yea that's how we did it in Tenshin Ryu, but I have to do it different now. It took quite a bit of correction from sensei to get used to it; one systems good technique is another systems bad habits. To be honest, Mugai Ryu isn't my favorite style, but it's close to my house and the hours fit with work.
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Post by zabazagobo on Dec 30, 2017 6:40:31 GMT
Yeah the thought of attempting noto in this manner with a moroha-zukuri blade is not a pleasant one. I argue the emphasis with noto on making contact with the left hand is a bit overdone, but that's up to stylistic preference. You had a great point about using the mune for blocks - you'll end up with a saw on your hand / the koiguchi. Hard to argue with stylistic nuances like that. What we like or dislike can be reasons to pursue or avoid a tradition, but if you are going to do X then it behooves you to use the tools and methods that are advocated in X. That "saw-mune" sucks, wears down the wood and can scratch your hand up pretty annoyingly. If only the mune was just a couple mm thicker
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Post by zabazagobo on Dec 30, 2017 6:50:41 GMT
In Mugai Ryu a couple of the kata have blocking with the mune, but in my old style, Tenshin Ryu, we blocked with the shinogi. Block isn't really a good word for it though, I guess parry would be closer. The thinking is that the mune is soft and a cut from another blade could dig in to the metal, but the shinogi is structurally stronger and it would be harder to cut through a blade from the side than it would from the top. Back to moroha zukuri, I guess you would do noto the same way you do a chinese sword. Kinda hold it sideways and put the point in horizontally. Does anybody here practice with one? That's the general rule of thumb, flat for parrying, although in some situations the mune can be really useful for really throwing the opponent off rhythm, especially if you're closing in at a diagonal vector along their side with your footwork. That'd be my guess with moroha zukuri as well, that as you reach the part of the blade with the blunt mune it corrects itself and slides in as is expected. It'd be more tricky to ensure the scabbard could survive performing batto/iai with the that geometry though, how well that blade shape lends itself to cuts from the draw is an interesting question.
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Post by ealdoss on May 2, 2018 20:01:26 GMT
Late to the party, but thought I'd chime in.
I have an Unokubi Zukuri shinken, and it's honestly my favorite to practice with. I practice Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, and the way we do Noto is similar to what you're describing - Fingers coiled around the koiguchi, slide the mune over hand and do Noto.
Because the mune is thin and not sharp, it makes no difference than doing noto with a Shinogi Zukuri. I don't rely on physical cues like thickness or geometry to know when to stop the blade in noto, it's from muscle memory alone. Practice a few times and you'll do it easily without thinking.
So yes, there's no difference in my opinion in the Noto when you use Unokubi Zukuri if you use a standard Noto (Think Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, Muso Shinden Ryu, Seitei Iaido, other styles, etc)
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