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Post by sefa78 on Dec 19, 2017 20:00:21 GMT
Hello guys this is my first post here and i've just taken interest in katana's, so first of all i was browsing for katanas online to buy but i didn't have a big budget to spend so i was looking at the cheap stuff however i didn't want an ordinary katana i wanted it to be alittle distinct so I thought maybe i should make my own one (i have no experience in making knives or swords or anything in that matter). the question i wanted to ask was do I have to fold the steel, is it necessary to make a katana or can i just buy high carbon steel and just make it using that. Another question i want to ask is can i quench it and clay temper the steel i bought or is it not possible? Thanks in advance
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Post by Verity on Dec 19, 2017 20:16:10 GMT
Hello guys this is my first post here and i've just taken interest in katana's, so first of all i was browsing for katanas online to buy but i didn't have a big budget to spend so i was looking at the cheap stuff however i didn't want an ordinary katana i wanted it to be alittle distinct so I thought maybe i should make my own one (i have no experience in making knives or swords or anything in that matter). the question i wanted to ask was do I have to fold the steel, is it necessary to make a katana or can i just buy high carbon steel and just make it using that. Another question i want to ask is can i quench it and clay temper the steel i bought or is it not possible? Thanks in advance I don’t even know where to start.... Take a forging class... maybe?
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Post by hoovesandswords on Dec 19, 2017 20:40:15 GMT
I agree with Verity, you definitely need to either a) take a class and learn the basics of blacksmithing or b) do tons of research online and learn the basics of blacksmithing before you start making swords. Especially with katana, which are quite a bit more complicated to make than just your average knife or backyard sword build. You need a large forge that is carefully built to heat the entire blade equally for starters, and for swords, you either need to learn various hammering techniques (some of which require multiple people to execute them correctly) or get an auto-hammer. There is a lot that goes into making knives and swords.
I would recommend reading as much as possible and looking around your area to see if anyone hosts seminars. Getting in contact with a local blacksmithing organization can definitely help you on your way! There are also plenty of people on youtube who post guides that you can learn a lot from. But just keep in mind, you'll need a lot of practice in general blacksmithing before you go into making a katana.
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Post by Verity on Dec 19, 2017 21:22:30 GMT
I have been doing metalwork for YEARS (chase and repousse) and also am getting into blacksmithing... I’ve made knives and stuff, but a katana is WELL beyond my capabilities just yet.
Also bear in mind, anvil of high quality is expensive, a proper size Forge to make a sword is expensive, and don’t forget the hammers and other items.
I’ve got over $4k into metalworking equipment and have YET to acquire a forge capable of swords, and let alone a heat treatment kiln.
“Making a Katana” is not a venture for the squeamish.
Then you have the togishi (polish) and tosogu (fittings) work....
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Post by hoovesandswords on Dec 19, 2017 21:44:05 GMT
I have been doing metalwork for YEARS (chase and repousse) and also am getting into blacksmithing... I’ve made knives and stuff, but a katana is WELL beyond my capabilities just yet. Also bear in mind, anvil of high quality is expensive, a proper size Forge to make a sword is expensive, and don’t forget the hammers and other items. I’ve got over $4k into metalworking equipment and have YET to acquire a forge capable of swords, and let alone a heat treatment kiln. “Making a Katana” is not a venture for the squeamish. Then you have the togishi (polish) and tosogu (fittings) work.... Exactly. Very expensive and extremely complicated.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Dec 19, 2017 22:06:46 GMT
There are some channels on YouTube that give bare bones how-to's on the subject, such as Walter Sorrells, but I agree with the above. The equipment is extremely expensive and actually doing it would be incredibly hard, with a very long learning curve. Not that you should give up on the notion, it's definitely an awesome goal to aspire to, but I think that first time out you'd be better served getting a good quality low cost sword and customizing it. That costs much less and while not easy is much more doable. There are also vendors like Sinosword that offer extensive customization options for swords at extremely reasonable prices.
To answer the folding question: no. Modern steel does not need to be folded. You can forge and/or grind it right out of the box and give it a differential hardening. You do need to do your research on the steel and find the best process for it, though, as all of them are different and will need a somewhat specific treatment.
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Post by Verity on Dec 19, 2017 22:24:03 GMT
Yes. To officially answer the question asked.
No you do not need to fold modern monosteels. Pattern welded steels are done for aesthetic appeals and to mix properties of the steels (L6/O1 for example makes a beautiful and very tough blade when properly folded and heat treated).
History lesson: original Japanese blades were folded because their steel was refined from the iron sands of Japan and made into orishigane and tamahagane. Pieces were selected based on their carbon content and then forge folded into billets and folded again and again to refine out the impurities as much as possible producing reliable blades. Harder tamahagane was used for the edge and softer tamahagane and sometimes even orishigane was used in the core to provide durability in the spine. (Assuming a laminated structure such as sanmai, kobuse, soshu kitae, etc.)
But these techniques were not done because they produced superior steel. That is an outright incorrect myth. It was done to overcome the abysmal quality iron they had at their disposal into a workable blade.
In Europe orishigane would have been referred to as “pig iron” and unfit for most blades. It was the Japanese craft that could turn junk iron and steel into a fine blade.
Modern monosteels FAR surpass almost anything historically used, in either japan OR Europe. The only reason to fold it would be to produce aesthetic appeal... (pattern weld or misnamed “Damascus” appearances). Also unless properly done by an experienced smith, you actually WEAKEN the steal by introduction slag into the blade where if left unfolded as mono it would have none.
So there you go... tamahagane was no magic thing. It was a testament to the smiths who made well performing and beautiful swords from junk iron sand... simple as that.
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Post by sefa78 on Dec 19, 2017 22:58:51 GMT
Thanks alot guys you answered all of my questions and I would like to take lessons but I don't think its possible where I live but im still going to try to make one even if its not going to work I have free time
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Post by Verity on Dec 19, 2017 23:00:03 GMT
Thanks alot guys you answered all of my questions and I would like to take lessons but I don't think its possible where I live but im still going to try to make one even if its not going to work I have free time best of luck! Just be prepared for some pain and disappointment along the way. 😊
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Post by hoovesandswords on Dec 19, 2017 23:06:59 GMT
Thanks alot guys you answered all of my questions and I would like to take lessons but I don't think its possible where I live but im still going to try to make one even if its not going to work I have free time I wish you luck in your smithing endeavors! And luckily there's always the internet, plenty of tutorials online and guidebooks you can get if you can't find a class.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 19, 2017 23:16:12 GMT
But these techniques were not done because they produced superior steel. That is an outright incorrect myth. It was done to overcome the abysmal quality iron they had at their disposal into a workable blade. ... So there you go... tamahagane was no magic thing. It was a testament to the smiths who made well performing and beautiful swords from junk iron sand... simple as that. The iron that comes out of the Japanese bloomery furnace (the tatara), i.e., the bloom/kera, is essentially the same as the iron that would come out of the European bloomery furnace. Until European steel-making switched to decarburisation of cast iron (starting with the finery furnace, and finishing with Bessemer), Japanese and European iron and steel were equally good (or equally bad). The bloom/kera isn't directly usable in either case - it's a spongy mass of iron/steel full of slag. Fold repeatedly to get respectably wrought iron or bloomery steel. After folding by the swordsmith, the steel used for the edge would usually be close to modern 1070 with more slag inclusions. They'd start with a higher carbon content, and, since they lose carbon each time they fold, the number of folds (usually between 10 and 20) was determined by the desired carbon content (about 0.7%, which is a good trick to get as consistent as they did when they don't know that magic ingredient in steel is carbon). 1070 is hardly a supersteel (and therefore neither is tamahagane after folding), but it's far from a junk steel. "Japanese steel = bad" is a myth. "Japanese steel = rare" is also a myth, before Japan industrialised in the late 19th century. (The limiting resource in pre-modern Japan was charcoal, not ore, as usual in pre-modern iron production. Which is why iron sources that are quite limited by modern standards, e.g., bog iron, were adequate for the time.) As for iron sand, it's actually good ore. You get fairly pure magnetite, once you wash (or today, use magnetic separation) the sand to separate the ore grains from the silica sand, and that magnetite is what goes into the tatara. Modern steel-makers today like iron sand because it's so pure. (The Japanese don't appear to have used it for quality reasons, but because it's easier than hard-rock mining.) Laminated construction is a different story from folding to get rid of the slag and homogenise the steel. Lamination is good when you're doing low-tech heat-treatment (and depending on autotempering rather than a temperature controlled oven for your tempering). Similar lamination techniques were used in both Europe and Japan (and elsewhere).
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Post by sefa78 on Dec 19, 2017 23:23:27 GMT
by the way I have one more question, in my garden we have something close to a furnace i've seen it melt brass, would the heat be sufficient to heat treat? it uses coal as fuel.
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Post by Verity on Dec 20, 2017 3:18:22 GMT
by the way I have one more question, in my garden we have something close to a furnace i've seen it melt brass, would the heat be sufficient to heat treat? it uses coal as fuel. if it can melt brass truly.... as in liquify... it should yes, provided the heat is even across the work sample. Brass (assuming standard machine brass) melts around the 1650-1700 mark... should work for a heat treat on a sword as say the quenching temperature for say... 1070 is around 1450-1500. Your issue will be even heating. Especially with coal.
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Post by sefa78 on Dec 20, 2017 10:28:14 GMT
thanks for your reply
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Post by Verity on Dec 20, 2017 15:23:37 GMT
thanks for your reply I don’t know that I’d attempt anything with a higher quenching temp than 1070’s...AISI 1095 for example quenches around 1650... that is pushing the limits given it is approaching and right around the melting point of brass. Without knowing just how hot your heat source can get you run the risk of not getting to a hardening temperature. But again. Even heating across the blade is going to be the biggest issue here anyway. Best of luck and let us know how it turns out!
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Post by jdm61 on Dec 26, 2017 5:12:36 GMT
thanks for your reply I don’t know that I’d attempt anything with a higher quenching temp than 1070’s...AISI 1095 for example quenches around 1650... that is pushing the limits given it is approaching and right around the melting point of brass. Without knowing just how hot your heat source can get you run the risk of not getting to a hardening temperature. But again. Even heating across the blade is going to be the biggest issue here anyway. Best of luck and let us know how it turns out! 1650 is damn near 200 degrees too hot for 1095. As the carbon content goes up the austenizing temperature goes DOWN. People going for a crazy hamon with 1095, W2, Hitachi white, etc will sometimes go as low as 1425 t get the most activity. The "sweet spot" for maximum as quenched hardness for "typical" 1% carbon W2 is like 1465-1475. For 1075/80/84 it is closer to 1500. As most real 1084 has too much manganese to get a really good hamon, the simple default heat treatment is 1500F austenizing with a 400F temper. That gets you like 61Rc. If you do it right. 1075 works about the same. Hyperetectoid steels like 1095, W2 and W2 are NOT for beginners. They require good temperature control and REAL fast quenchant, not peanut oil or ATF. Using water for the lunch makes you life twice as hard than if you us something like Parks #50. As for comments about forges and heat treating, almost any size forge can be used to make a sword. Heat treating is another matter altogether.
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Post by Verity on Dec 26, 2017 16:42:41 GMT
I don’t know that I’d attempt anything with a higher quenching temp than 1070’s...AISI 1095 for example quenches around 1650... that is pushing the limits given it is approaching and right around the melting point of brass. Without knowing just how hot your heat source can get you run the risk of not getting to a hardening temperature. But again. Even heating across the blade is going to be the biggest issue here anyway. Best of luck and let us know how it turns out! 1650 is damn near 200 degrees too hot for 1095. As the carbon content goes up the austenizing temperature goes DOWN. People going for a crazy hamon with 1095, W2, Hitachi white, etc will sometimes go as low as 1425 t get the most activity. The "sweet spot" for maximum as quenched hardness for "typical" 1% carbon W2 is like 1465-1475. For 1075/80/84 it is closer to 1500. As most real 1084 has too much manganese to get a really good hamon, the simple default heat treatment is 1500F austenizing with a 400F temper. That gets you like 61Rc. If you do it right. 1075 works about the same. Hyperetectoid steels like 1095, W2 and W2 are NOT for beginners. They require good temperature control and REAL fast quenchant, not peanut oil or ATF. Using water for the lunch makes you life twice as hard than if you us something like Parks #50. As for comments about forges and heat treating, almost any size forge can be used to make a sword. Heat treating is another matter altogether. entirely possible. I was simply using the AISI “normalization” and “quenching” temps, which I assume are maximums for that particular spec. Obviously the temperatures are a range. Practical experience will always win out over a specification but was trying to provide maximum specs to the OP as his question was “can my heat source get hot enough”... maximums per AISI seemed to be a reasonable stat to use to convey that. I also stated that the OP’s issue would be even heating for proper heat treatment and not forging itself.
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Post by sefa78 on Jan 8, 2018 15:22:57 GMT
Thank you all for responding im going to start making it next week i've decided to make a bigger forge out of cinder blocks something that won't be too expensive, will I need a forge blower or not? and again its going to be coal powered.
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Post by sefa78 on Jan 28, 2018 15:16:35 GMT
So guys i made this all there is left to do is sharpen it and to quench it , its about 3mm thick and its iron
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Post by MOK on Jan 28, 2018 15:38:18 GMT
Not bad at all for a first go! Now, how are you gonna hilt it? BTW, how'd the forge work?
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