|
Post by Cosmoline on Nov 7, 2017 17:26:17 GMT
If you're wanting to get into an epic brawl, there's also bohurt/BON. They don't care so much about technique or authenticity, and they have a reputation as bruisers. The drawback is they're not really doing sword fighting so much as smashing each other's armor with various objects until they pass out or bleed out. So you don't really learn how to fight someone with a sword. Lots of fun though.
Yeah ideally we should have English terms for these things, but some of the concepts are so tied to a particular system that it gets dangerous to use English. For example Chinese systems may refer to "chi," which could be called a number of different things in English without really capturing what it means. In German you have the concepts of vor/indes/nach and fulen/stark/schwach. You could call these before/during/after and feeling/strong/weak. But that would be missing some of the meaning, so we keep them in German most of the time.
And it's not that difficult. There aren't a huge number of guards in the core HEMA systems. And it isn't like you're going to be fighting from rigidly-defined positions. The guards are ways of understanding movement. So for example if you are trying to figure out why you lost, your opponent could tell you "I just went up to an extended left ochs(ox)," you'll be able to quickly compartmentalize the response. Basically they make training way easier for most people. Like I.33 says, the art of sword fighting is the ordering of diverse strikes. It's a kind of analysis that allows the brain to make sense of a seemingly incoherent set of movements. There are a lot of good videos in various systems going over the guards. For example, here are the pasta positions from our neighbors to the south. And just as an example, the hits they're doing would be fatal or severely damaging if done with sharps out of armor. All it takes is a well-aligned tag hit to cut a hand half off:
|
|
|
Post by vecna on Nov 8, 2017 0:35:31 GMT
ok I see what you mean about the ill defined terms, and why you keep em in the original. On the subject of Chi, after years and years of agonising over that word, I think it does exist, but I am an engineer so I have to reject any new force. Instead I consider it a state of mind, a place where all thought processes and all possible movements meet. Some interesting guards, but sorry had to laugh myself stupid at the "throw your sword away guard " which dumbass came up with that. The chances of doing any damage to an opponent by throwing your sword at them is approaching zero, and you have just thrown your primary weapon TO your opponent, who now has 2 swords to kick your ass with. genius! The low offhand guard is also very crap, the same crap guard is found in kenjitsu , its so very easy to feint - out that initial low-high sweep, and leave the opponent with their whole left side completely vunrable. In fact any guard that anticipates a block fails in real combat. The guys in the video were good fighters, I could see it in their build and posture movements. Any one of them would be a tough fight but not if they decided to go pure historical lol. Then its a walkover.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 2:54:45 GMT
Where'd you get the real sword combat experience to know what fails with such conviction?
|
|
|
Post by vecna on Nov 8, 2017 7:59:59 GMT
Where'd you get the real sword combat experience to know what fails with such conviction? Common sense to be honest, just look at the footage, one bloke throws it, the other easily side swipes it, Its easily seen comming thus easily defended. Plus you are relying on an instant kill by sword point ( that's only the eye, heart, or throat, good luck with hitting any of them clean to a moving experienced opponent) . Anything but an instant kill and you end up with the scenario I described, with the opposition in possession of your weapon.
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 8, 2017 9:05:41 GMT
The point of throwing the sword is mostly if you are planning to run away (e.g., if you decide that your chances of surviving if you stay and fight are minimal, and there is no great need to stay and die). It's a longshot, but in the likely event of it failing, you have 1.5kg less to impede you while you run away.
The low guards with sword to the side or sword trailing are offensive, not defensive. You can either initiate the attack, in which case you don't seriously expect to hit with the direct strike but with one of the follow-up strikes, or counter-attack when your opponent initiates an attack. The "whole left side completely vunrable" isn't a bug - it's a feature.
I don't really like the low sword to the side/trailing guards, but they're useful to have in your range of techniques, and it's important to know how to deal with them. Low guard, sword in front, OTOH, is one of my favourite guards. It isn't the "low" I don't like about low side/trailing, but the "side/trailing" part - I also don't really like "wrath guard".
|
|
|
Post by vecna on Nov 8, 2017 10:23:57 GMT
The point of throwing the sword is mostly if you are planning to run away (e.g., if you decide that your chances of surviving if you stay and fight are minimal, and there is no great need to stay and die). It's a longshot, but in the likely event of it failing, you have 1.5kg less to impede you while you run away. The low guards with sword to the side or sword trailing are offensive, not defensive. You can either initiate the attack, in which case you don't seriously expect to hit with the direct strike but with one of the follow-up strikes, or counter-attack when your opponent initiates an attack. The "whole left side completely vunrable" isn't a bug - it's a feature. I don't really like the low sword to the side/trailing guards, but they're useful to have in your range of techniques, and it's important to know how to deal with them. Low guard, sword in front, OTOH, is one of my favourite guards. It isn't the "low" I don't like about low side/trailing, but the "side/trailing" part - I also don't really like "wrath guard". Bingo! Dude did not for one second think about it in the running away scenario ( obviously have never trained to run, and that's something you have highlighted to me, man I knew this forum was a good idea) . In that scenario alone it makes real sense and is excellent practice, just the surprise factor and having to defend the flying blade will give you a usefully 2-5 second start. Your pretty similar to me, low, high, off angle or straight down the pipe, as long as the swords well infront you know your searious and not just trying for stuff. I have never used a trailing guard of any kind in full speed bouts. But have had them used against me, and as said really easy to tease out with feints, plus the Stance that goes with the guard is very static. Once you have teased out the first upward stroke, they are real keen for you to come in so they can nail you with the full power downward , straight armed cut. But the fact that they are real keen ( since left side exposed as bait) means they will bite on another feint real easy, and set themselves up for a range of cuts over their now virtually grounded guard. Its just like chess, the low trailing is not a good opening move, its not going to lose you the game, but best stick with pawn to king 4.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 13:21:07 GMT
Or throw to create an interval to close in for ringen / dagger work while the opponent is addressing the sword being thrown at him. It wouldn't be effective to just throw the sword and then stand passively waiting to see what happens.
Low and high guards make attacks targeting the hands all but impossible. You aren't defenseless because you still have your footwork / body work to respond to attacks, and you make the opponent have to bridge one more arms' reach of distance in order to threaten you.
|
|
|
Post by vecna on Nov 8, 2017 14:51:19 GMT
Or throw to create an interval to close in for ringen / dagger work while the opponent is addressing the sword being thrown at him. It wouldn't be effective to just throw the sword and then stand passively waiting to see what happens. Low and high guards make attacks targeting the hands all but impossible. You aren't defenseless because you still have your footwork / body work to respond to attacks, and you make the opponent have to bridge one more arms' reach of distance in order to threaten you. Not at the distance shown in the video, you would gain less than 2 steps with such a diversion ( in rough estimation, not checked it in combat obviously) then you need time to draw a dagger. Plus if opponent backs off quick your left chasing his ass, trying to cover the distance with only a dagger for protection. A better, in my opinion, strategy for covering the distance ( if your ground work is good )is present opponent with an easy block, then when he bites and blocks, totally drop your sword and literally jump on him, or go for the double leg take down. Then your into grappling, achieve dominant top position, then you have ample time to draw your dagger and finish him off, up through the throat and into the spine, or if you end up taking his back, back of the neck into the spine. Yes low and high forward guards, fine, there are guys that specialise in both and do very well, I was complaining about trailinig guards, where the sword centre of gravity is behind the fighters c of g , for the reasons already mentioned I don't recommended low or high trailing guards. They do look cool though : )
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Nov 8, 2017 17:47:42 GMT
Some interesting guards, but sorry had to laugh myself stupid at the "throw your sword away guard " which dumbass came up with that. The chances of doing any damage to an opponent by throwing your sword at them is approaching zero, and you have just thrown your primary weapon TO your opponent, who now has 2 swords to kick your ass with. genius! The low offhand guard is also very crap, the same crap guard is found in kenjitsu , its so very easy to feint - out that initial low-high sweep, and leave the opponent with their whole left side completely vunrable. In fact any guard that anticipates a block fails in real combat. The guys in the video were good fighters, I could see it in their build and posture movements. Any one of them would be a tough fight but not if they decided to go pure historical lol. Then its a walkover. Yeah Fiore's throw is odd. But on the other hand, if the longsword hits when thrown, it will go right into an unarmored person with a serious or fatal wound. It's probably best seen as an illustration of a concept rather than anyone's Plan A for a fight. While throwing a sword would be unusual, other things like spears and javelins get thrown all the time. So the lesson is learning to use a particular sequence of movements to clear the space and deflect the missile. These weren't usually illustrations of actual combat, but rather a way of teaching people how to think about the fight. The same holds true for I.33. There's that too, esp. if the opponent is way better than you are. If you have a good sense of measure and an opponent who's overly keen, a trailing guard esp to the low left can be a setup for a ferocious displacement and strike. You see them used this way in longsword and messer as well as pole arms. Of course, if you mistime your attack you just get killed. Or if you're going against an opponent who knows the trap you're setting.
|
|
|
Post by vecna on Nov 8, 2017 20:19:15 GMT
I was trying some sword throwing in training today, ( not to much since we have mirrors in the Budo hall ) and for the purpose of running away, the stance as shown is not perfect. Throwing the sword in such a way ( like a mini spear) forces the weight forward, delaying the turn and run action, I was experementing with more like a flick action from low front (proceeding) guard, with a spin action to face me in the right direction, all as a single movement, but too hard to get the bloody thing to fly true. Second plan is like a one handed mid horizontal cut ( where you are just hanging on to the sword and following the arc with your body) but let go in mid arc, that flies true but is well telegraphed. Not exactly productive training but damn fun lol.
Edit Nah think my experements are BS, throwing weight forward should be fine if you use momentum to spin on front foot and turn yourself 180, ready to run, much as shown ( but they miss the 180 spin) .
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Nov 8, 2017 22:59:56 GMT
A lot of folks have puzzled over the Fiore sword throw over the years. Personally I think there's a missing piece to our understanding of it, like with the even more infamous pommel throw. Don't mention the pommel throw! Crud I mentioned it.
|
|
|
Post by Robert in California on Nov 9, 2017 3:09:56 GMT
After studying enough kenjutsu to be a novice swordsman IMO, I joined a kendo club. After a few months, I quit it. In kenjutsu, we were taught full power cuts ... and cutting through the target (opponent). In kendo, I started out breaking shinai on opponents ... hitting too hard. In kendo the idea is to score fast "tap style" points...and was not really related to what I learned in kenjutsu. Sort of like "touch" football vs. tackle football.
Please when the class would line up and everyone take turns hitting me on the top or top sides of the head (we had kendo armor), I would end up with a bad headache by end of class. That got old. So I just could not maintain interest. Comments about linear moves, etc I agree with. Benefit over iai and kenjutsu was to actually do contact sparring with an opponent. Didn't do that with live swords (nihonto shinken). RinC
|
|
|
Post by vecna on Nov 9, 2017 9:21:19 GMT
After studying enough kenjutsu to be a novice swordsman IMO, I joined a kendo club. After a few months, I quit it. In kenjutsu, we were taught full power cuts ... and cutting through the target (opponent). In kendo, I started out breaking shinai on opponents ... hitting too hard. In kendo the idea is to score fast "tap style" points...and was not really related to what I learned in kenjutsu. Sort of like "touch" football vs. tackle football. Please when the class would line up and everyone take turns hitting me on the top or top sides of the head (we had kendo armor), I would end up with a bad headache by end of class. That got old. So I just could not maintain interest. Comments about linear moves, etc I agree with. Benefit over iai and kenjutsu was to actually do contact sparring with an opponent. Didn't do that with live swords (nihonto shinken). RinC Thanks for that, really interesting observations. I had a feeling there would be sutch issues, the lack of awareness of sword edge, and as you say cutting through the target. I thought maybe it would be sort of worth putting up with the crap in order to get fresh bodies to beat up in competition. With your observations not so sure joining a club is a good idea, I think I would see it as a challenge to drive that stick straight through someone lol You can do full power / speed sparing with 3/4 weight ( 3/4 weight of your primary katana ) bokken, but obviously one needs to armor up. I prefer the modern approach, motorcycle kit with reinforced bits. But even armored up someone always ends up hurt, that's not really sutch a bad thing though, a bit of sharp pain is a real good learning tool. The only full speed semi-sparring with live katana I was involved in ended up with me in hospital for 6 weeks, was real lucky . ( you can bet i know how to block a thrust to the gut now) so don't recomend that.
|
|
|
Post by vecna on Nov 9, 2017 14:40:46 GMT
Taiji has some cute stuff. Scott Rodell's book, Chinese Swordsmanship, is good. You can find the major taiji jian and dao forms on youtube. It's harder to find anything good about applications of the techniques in the forms, so be prepared to decode yourself. (And when you do find applications given, they're often unworkable (thus, not the correct applications).) Taiji ,had no idea that was the one handed Chinese sword. Looking for useful stuff here, bug hard to find. Found this though m.youtube.com/watch?v=fjWA4VofNpA Which if you ignore the obviously insane Chinese Guy, has some really nice moves. I was very taken with the thrust to groin followed by upper thrust to throat. Class.
|
|