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Post by vecna on Nov 6, 2017 20:21:17 GMT
I am a long time swordsman, been training with the bokken for about 9 years now, and lighter fencing weight swords for about 12 years before that. I need some more moves to weave into my style, been looking at the 2015 japaneses kendo national championships, and those guys are good, the cuts are fast enough to be useful. Obviously they ignore the edge ( being that effectively they are using sticks) but I'm sure that can be worked round. So where do I get some detailed footwork and bladework data for kendo? I have already explored joining a club, but the whole pompous "learn the Japanese language and culture " is seariously going to lead to a culture clash with me: ) I don't give a flying f***k about anything other than being a more effective swordsman, hence I will borrow from any style or tradition I see fit, I will strike to any area that is presented to me. Plus Learning a new language to learn a art is just stupid since it creates unnecessary barriers to effective communication , its like having my electronics degree deliberately taught in Chinese , WTF and why? lol Having read some of the posts here I see quite a few experienced swordsmen ( I feel maybe finally have paned in the right place) so any other suggestions as to where to find some good techniques would be much appreciated. As mentioned am looking for katana/bastard sword moves, tackling up to chain mail standard armor opponents ( to give an idea of the power of the cuts needed) , no shield work on either side. Please note though I do, and have always, trained at full speed and full power, with full speed ( less powered) sparing. techniques that do not work in that context ( nearly all of Aikido for example) please do not suggest.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Nov 6, 2017 21:47:07 GMT
Are you looking for specific techniques? I'd suggest joining a local HEMA club if there is one around.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 6, 2017 22:10:34 GMT
So where do I get some detailed footwork and bladework data for kendo? I have already explored joining a club, but the whole pompous "learn the Japanese language and culture " is seariously going to lead to a culture clash with me: ) You'll find some fun stuff if you search youtube for "kendo slow motion". Otherwise, you want a skilled instructor. Kendo clubs vary. Some are much more traditional, cultural, and regimented than others, while others are just a bunch of guys who want to hit each other with sticks. Also check out gumdo clubs (gumdo is Korean kendo, but you want regular gumdo, not Haedong Gumdo which is very different (well, you might like it too, but it isn't kendo). You shouldn't find much new in kendo technique. The benefit from kendo would be full-speed full-contact sparring and high-intensity competition against good opponents. Timing, judgment, etc. will all improve. If there is technique that is new, it might be: 1. You can see kendo players move their hands out and/or up to get better angles for attacks (not unique to kendo). 2. Explosive footwork. Generally, a powerful push off the rear foot. You'll see this in video. Otherwise, swordwork can suffer from being done with a relatively light stick and the very limited target areas. Footwork is linear, optimised for a smooth dojo floor, short stance. Not designed to deal with attacks to the legs. any other suggestions as to where to find some good techniques would be much appreciated. Taiji has some cute stuff. Scott Rodell's book, Chinese Swordsmanship, is good. You can find the major taiji jian and dao forms on youtube. It's harder to find anything good about applications of the techniques in the forms, so be prepared to decode yourself. (And when you do find applications given, they're often unworkable (thus, not the correct applications).) The technical stuff for bastard sword/longsword/etc. can be divided into 3 groups:
- Basics: Footwork, the 4 main guards, thrusts, cuts, blocks/parries. With a couple of decades of experience, you shouldn't find much new in this group. You should find nothing that's both essential and new.
- Fighting in the bind: Highly technical. You should be able to find plenty of new technique here. The best I've seen is in European longsword. Difficult to learn well without good instruction and skilled training partners. Difficult to train at speed without good protective gear.
- Wrestling/grappling: Also highly technical. As above, difficult to learn well without good instruction and skilled training partners, and difficult to train safely. If you can't find locals who can teach this well, Judo is a good start.
Not knowing the details of your experience, I can only give generic advice that fits most: if you want more technique, the most productive and valuable things will be in the last 2 groups above. Alas, these are also the hardest to learn and train (they're much more dependent on having good training partners and instructors). Could add to the above a 4th group: sword vs other weapons. But much of it is just applications of the techniques above. Chinese sword forms can be a good source of ideas; the opposing weapon in often a spear. As mentioned am looking for katana/bastard sword moves, tackling up to chain mail standard armor opponents ( to give an idea of the power of the cuts needed) , no shield work on either side. Please note though I do, and have always, trained at full speed and full power, with full speed ( less powered) sparing. techniques that do not work in that context ( nearly all of Aikido for example) please do not suggest. Armoured fighting is actually where Aikido (done right, trained well against resistance) will excel. The base on which it is built is grappling in armour, for those wonderful times when your sword/spear/naginata breaks and your opponent is still armed. Avoid, throw, immobilise (and the last step left out in Aikido: draw your dagger/knife and stab in gaps). For sword against armour, it isn't about power. Mail is designed to stop the main threats on the battlefield, and it does that well. Armour that stops arrows and spears does well against swords.
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Post by vecna on Nov 6, 2017 23:11:50 GMT
No nothing specific, I'm very much open to suggestions. HEMA, hmmmm,. not wishing to be dispariging but skill level of most guys have seen maybe a little low. Maybe because HEMA is so young? Also not a fan of the short hilt long sword used, there is a sweet spot in the ratio between blade length/weight and Hilt length, I don't feel the HEMA long swords hit that sweet spot, but that's just my opinion. I have had a look at a few HEMA instruction videos, what I did like was that the footwork was extensively covered. But a lot of the rest just ain't going to fly at full speed ( murderous intent) , not with the short hilt that long sword anyway. Likewise scoring seems a bit weird, very open to interpretation, in this world of electronics what's wrong with a force sensor somewhere to detect legitimate hit of enough force. But certainly will give it a go, maybe my observations are wrong! you never know lol
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 7, 2017 0:00:39 GMT
HEMA, hmmmm,. not wishing to be dispariging but skill level of most guys have seen maybe a little low. Maybe because HEMA is so young? Top-level HEMA or local club HEMA? Most people in most martial arts are at a low skill level. People join, do it for a few months, and drop out. People join, train every now and then, but never enough to get really good. Don't expect great talent in local clubs. Sometimes you get lucky. HEMA/WMA does have a much smaller talent pool to draw on, and the top tier of talent is much thinner than in kendo (approx 6 million people) and olympic-style fencing (over 1 million people). Some top-level HEMA: Also not a fan of the short hilt long sword used, there is a sweet spot in the ratio between blade length/weight and Hilt length, I don't feel the HEMA long swords hit that sweet spot, but that's just my opinion. I wouldn't call a 12" (as usual on a longsword) hilt short. Shorter in proportion to the blade than the average katana hilt, but longer in absolute terms. (A shinai as used in kendo is longer in both the blade and tsuka than a katana; a size 39 shinai is 120cm overall typically with 30cm of tsuka, so same length and proportions as a typical longsword.) As short as possible while providing sufficient leverage is a fair recipe for a sword intended for use in two hands. If extra length didn't come with disadvantages, then I think we'd see more variation, and some much longer hilts. If 12"/30cm isn't enough, there are plenty of HEMA weapons that exceed that: halberd, partisan, spear. Big two-handed swords, too.
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Post by vecna on Nov 7, 2017 0:01:17 GMT
So where do I get some detailed footwork and bladework data for kendo? I have already explored joining a club, but the whole pompous "learn the Japanese language and culture " is seariously going to lead to a culture clash with me: ) You'll find some fun stuff if you search youtube for "kendo slow motion". Otherwise, you want a skilled instructor. Kendo clubs vary. Some are much more traditional, cultural, and regimented than others, while others are just a bunch of guys who want to hit each other with sticks. Also check out gumdo clubs (gumdo is Korean kendo, but you want regular gumdo, not Haedong Gumdo which is very different (well, you might like it too, but it isn't kendo). You shouldn't find much new in kendo technique. The benefit from kendo would be full-speed full-contact sparring and high-intensity competition against good opponents. Timing, judgment, etc. will all improve. If there is technique that is new, it might be: 1. You can see kendo players move their hands out and/or up to get better angles for attacks (not unique to kendo). 2. Explosive footwork. Generally, a powerful push off the rear foot. You'll see this in video. Otherwise, swordwork can suffer from being done with a relatively light stick and the very limited target areas. Footwork is linear, optimised for a smooth dojo floor, short stance. Not designed to deal with attacks to the legs. any other suggestions as to where to find some good techniques would be much appreciated. Taiji has some cute stuff. Scott Rodell's book, Chinese Swordsmanship, is good. You can find the major taiji jian and dao forms on youtube. It's harder to find anything good about applications of the techniques in the forms, so be prepared to decode yourself. (And when you do find applications given, they're often unworkable (thus, not the correct applications).) The technical stuff for bastard sword/longsword/etc. can be divided into 3 groups:
- Basics: Footwork, the 4 main guards, thrusts, cuts, blocks/parries. With a couple of decades of experience, you shouldn't find much new in this group. You should find nothing that's both essential and new.
- Fighting in the bind: Highly technical. You should be able to find plenty of new technique here. The best I've seen is in European longsword. Difficult to learn well without good instruction and skilled training partners. Difficult to train at speed without good protective gear.
- Wrestling/grappling: Also highly technical. As above, difficult to learn well without good instruction and skilled training partners, and difficult to train safely. If you can't find locals who can teach this well, Judo is a good start.
Not knowing the details of your experience, I can only give generic advice that fits most: if you want more technique, the most productive and valuable things will be in the last 2 groups above. Alas, these are also the hardest to learn and train (they're much more dependent on having good training partners and instructors). Could add to the above a 4th group: sword vs other weapons. But much of it is just applications of the techniques above. Chinese sword forms can be a good source of ideas; the opposing weapon in often a spear. As mentioned am looking for katana/bastard sword moves, tackling up to chain mail standard armor opponents ( to give an idea of the power of the cuts needed) , no shield work on either side. Please note though I do, and have always, trained at full speed and full power, with full speed ( less powered) sparing. techniques that do not work in that context ( nearly all of Aikido for example) please do not suggest. Armoured fighting is actually where Aikido (done right, trained well against resistance) will excel. The base on which it is built is grappling in armour, for those wonderful times when your sword/spear/naginata breaks and your opponent is still armed. Avoid, throw, immobilise (and the last step left out in Aikido: draw your dagger/knife and stab in gaps). For sword against armour, it isn't about power. Mail is designed to stop the main threats on the battlefield, and it does that well. Armour that stops arrows and spears does well against swords. Thank you so much, that's all Good useful stuff to have a look at. I had no idea some kendo clubs were laid back, I got the impression they were all very stuffy indeed. I'm in Denmark so have only 1 to chose from, so will see what its like. Fingers crossed they are in the relaxed camp. Grappling, have been studying MMA in parallel to sword training for about 2 years, ( before That it was full contact karate, followed by kung-fu then TKD ) So would say Aikido stinks in the grappling department aswell, in my opinion, greko-roman wrestling ( but including the double and single leg takedown) for the cliche and good old BJJ if it hits the ground. A katana will cut right through chain if you apply enough force to the cut. But bounce right off well made plate, unless your a bloody 300 pound gorilla lol lol. But you could get through with a 2 handed trust, on badly designed (flat) chest plate, if your very lucky. ( I'm deliberately ignoring the joints, targets like that are only viable if you have a good skill advantage ) But yea katana not the weapon of choice facing a tin can, that's a 6 ft shield and a military pick! I just used the chain mail as a benchmark to denote techniques should be able to apply said given power. And not be slaps for points.. Once again thanks, some stuff to chew on.
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Post by vecna on Nov 7, 2017 0:19:04 GMT
HEMA, hmmmm,. not wishing to be dispariging but skill level of most guys have seen maybe a little low. Maybe because HEMA is so young? Top-level HEMA or local club HEMA? Most people in most martial arts are at a low skill level. People join, do it for a few months, and drop out. People join, train every now and then, but never enough to get really good. Don't expect great talent in local clubs. Sometimes you get lucky. HEMA/WMA does have a much smaller talent pool to draw on, and the top tier of talent is much thinner than in kendo (approx 6 million people) and olympic-style fencing (over 1 million people). Some top-level HEMA: Also not a fan of the short hilt long sword used, there is a sweet spot in the ratio between blade length/weight and Hilt length, I don't feel the HEMA long swords hit that sweet spot, but that's just my opinion. I wouldn't call a 12" (as usual on a longsword) hilt short. Shorter in proportion to the blade than the average katana hilt, but longer in absolute terms. (A shinai as used in kendo is longer in both the blade and tsuka than a katana; a size 39 shinai is 120cm overall typically with 30cm of tsuka, so same length and proportions as a typical longsword.) As short as possible while providing sufficient leverage is a fair recipe for a sword intended for use in two hands. If extra length didn't come with disadvantages, then I think we'd see more variation, and some much longer hilts. If 12"/30cm isn't enough, there are plenty of HEMA weapons that exceed that: halberd, partisan, spear. Big two-handed swords, too. Yes its the proportion of hilt to blade, a tiny bit short, but no real biggie. Just makes the blade a tiny bit slower and that changes tactics a little. Same blade just put an extra inch or 1.5 on the hilt and perfect. So that's swordfish 2016 ? Yes the talent is a LOT lower than the Japanese national finals in kendo. To be honest none of the guys in that video would hang with me, and definatly not in my prime ( am 50 now so slowing a touch, ) But some nice sneaky close Quater stuff , which think will borrow
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 7, 2017 0:32:01 GMT
Grappling, have been studying MMA in parallel to sword training for about 2 years, ( before That it was full contact karate, followed by kung-fu then TKD ) So would say Aikido stinks in the grappling department aswell, in my opinion, greko-roman wrestling ( but including the double and single leg takedown) for the cliche and good old BJJ if it hits the ground. The problem with Aikido isn't the techniques, but the teaching methods. Not enough realistic training against resisting opponents. THe techniques intended for use against a sword are trained against a partner doing what would be a poor attack with a sword, but doing it empty-handed (making it a very poor empty-handed attack). When somebody isn't attacking you with a sword, aikido isn't the best set of grappling techniques. Plenty of stand-up grappling stuff will work well. It's just a question of training it with swords, and seeing what needs to be changed. A katana will cut right through chain if you apply enough force to the cut. But bounce right off well made plate, unless your a bloody 300 pound gorilla lol lol. But you could get through with a 2 handed trust, on badly designed (flat) chest plate, if your very lucky. Through proper mail, powered by a human, no. Typical mail intended for the battlefield is designed to stop arrows from 100lb bows, to stop lances. You should be able to cut through individual rings or a small patch if it's backed by something like a block of wood, but with a softer backing (from a few layers of cloth through to a gambeson, and a human), the contact is over too large an area, with too much give. Thrust, maybe, depending on the mail and the sword. A thrust can also go through the thin parts of plate, but you don't have a realistic chance against a typical breastplate (of the type designed to be worn without mail under it; those designed to supplement mail are much thinner). Just get a 2mm thick sheet of mild steel and see how far you get.
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Post by vecna on Nov 7, 2017 1:17:52 GMT
Fair enough. I totally take your point on mail, I have never tested my full force blows on battlefield chain, its just been my feeling from wearing various reproduction chain items, having said that have never had my hands on the real thing in any form, kind of figures the real thing is much better. But Jesus had no idea chain would stop an arrow! Let alone from a 100lb draw. Could I use a simple example as you said, 2mm mild sheet, ? I'm fascinated to try, but would it actually tell me anything about a getting through a breast plate ? Given that human will move backwards significantly.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 7, 2017 1:22:18 GMT
I had no idea some kendo clubs were laid back, I got the impression they were all very stuffy indeed. I'm in Denmark so have only 1 to chose from, so will see what its like. Fingers crossed they are in the relaxed camp. University clubs are often more laid-back. See if any local universities have kendo clubs, and go along and watch a training session or two.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 7, 2017 1:55:31 GMT
Fair enough. :) I totally take your point on mail, I have never tested my full force blows on battlefield chain, its just been my feeling from wearing various reproduction chain items, having said that have never had my hands on the real thing in any form, kind of figures the real thing is much better. But Jesus had no idea chain would stop an arrow! Let alone from a 100lb draw. Williams, The Knight and the Blast Furnace, gives some test results. Mail (using a piece of 15th century mail) + 16 layers of linen behind it takes an arrow with 120J of energy to go through. IIRC, that's with a firm backing behind it, so it might do a little better when worn by a human. That's more than a 100lb longbow will deliver at point-blank range. Bows and crossbow did get more powerful than that, but armour adapted. First, extra layers of textile armour (more layers of linen, or a padded gambeson, or a felt gambeson) would be worn on top (so a sandwich of textile-mail-textile). Second, as crossbows grew even more powerful, plate-mail-textile. Could I use a simple example as you said, 2mm mild sheet, ? I'm fascinated to try, but would it actually tell me anything about a getting through a breast plate ? Given that human will move backwards significantly. Breastplates designed to be worn without mail tend to be 2-3mm thick (before they got even thicker to resist bullets). So a reasonable assumption is that a 2mm sheet of mild steel is less protective. If that stops some attack, the real armour would stop the attack too (you could even try it with 1.7 to 1.8mm). If the 2mm sheet is sufficiently protective, the armour would be too. If the weapon goes through the 2mm sheet, it doesn't mean that it would go through the real armour. As you say, the human will move backwards, and the armour is usually thicker than that, and curved. In this case, it isn't a good test. But it's a good test if the weapon fails to go through the sheet.
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Post by Cosmoline on Nov 7, 2017 2:11:51 GMT
No nothing specific, I'm very much open to suggestions. HEMA, hmmmm,. not wishing to be dispariging but skill level of most guys have seen maybe a little low. Maybe because HEMA is so young? Also not a fan of the short hilt long sword used, there is a sweet spot in the ratio between blade length/weight and Hilt length, I don't feel the HEMA long swords hit that sweet spot, but that's just my opinion. I have had a look at a few HEMA instruction videos, what I did like was that the footwork was extensively covered. But a lot of the rest just ain't going to fly at full speed ( murderous intent) , not with the short hilt that long sword anyway. Likewise scoring seems a bit weird, very open to interpretation, in this world of electronics what's wrong with a force sensor somewhere to detect legitimate hit of enough force. But certainly will give it a go, maybe my observations are wrong! you never know lol The role of the hilt length in generating power is not as significant as you might imagine. While there is some push-pull that occurs as a result of the sword and hand movement, the cut's effectiveness depends a lot more on blade alignment and follow-through. Any longsword or katana is sufficient to deliver a lethal blow in unarmored combat. Against armor your techniques must change, since cutting at chain or plate is generally ineffective at least with a sword. The endless drilling and study in HEMA or Kendo are done to make sure you aren't just muscling the blade. It's often a matter of re-learning how to move. Just using power makes you really easy to defeat in any sword system. Oh if you're going against butted chain a few thwacks will start to pull it apart. It's essentially costuming, not armor. But the riveted stuff, especially made by someone who knows how to do it, is a lot tougher to get through. It takes a determined thrust to the right area to have much hope of cracking it open. There are a lot of us fat geeks in HEMA ;-) But there are also some phenomenally skilled athletes. One thing to keep in mind is that HEMA videos are often showing very painstaking reconstruction of techniques from source books. That means moving at very slow speed to demonstrate an interpretation after drilling them for months. There's also slow play to explore these concepts. The full speed work in padded kit and the tournaments are just aspects of the pursuit. It can be frustrating for people who just want to learn how to do it. The problem is nobody really knows all the permutations, particularly in some parts of HEMA. So all those participating must take on the role of scholars and teachers. Well sword fighting as it's been handed down to us often comes in languages other than English. In fact there's not much prior to the 16th century from English sources. And even then you STILL have to know the basic terms from foreign sources. So there's no way to really be useful at HEMA without learning at least the basic terms of German longsword. You don't have to memorize the poetry but you would be wise to learn the hidden strikes and the underlying concepts. Likewise we all need to know the Italian lingo since it plays such a huge role especially in Renaissance swordplay. French is optional though. And humility to the source is also important. For example when we're unraveling some cryptic passage from a seven hundred year old text, we have to work out the potential meanings with drills and freeplay without just discarding the whole thing. Both because that would be self-defeating and because ultimately this stuff does seem to work. And to give us insight into how people fought with swords back when they HAD to fight with them. Overall if you are interested I'd suggest someone like Jake Norwood. He's a vet and a very good, practical instructor. Not too fixated on minutiae though he's very well versed in the German longsword sources. He's got some great videos out there under his name on youtube, and runs his own school.
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Post by zabazagobo on Nov 7, 2017 3:26:00 GMT
There's limitations to the English language so that translating some stuff from other languages (Japanese in particular pops into mind) becomes tricky and you're best off reading multiple translations to get the idea. I agree some circles are a bit nationalistic and/or pompous about it, but there's some merit to the notion of learning the source language. There's a lot of available material out there inaccessible to me as I haven't taken the time to learn the language, sadly.
Some kendo clubs can be stuffy, but others could be much more fun and/or practicality oriented, you just have to shop around for them to find the best fit. I haven't had the best luck, hence I practice by myself almost exclusively, but others have a good amount of luck finding a good fit.
Proper kenjutsu isn't really all that prevalent outside of Japan, so that one's trickier. I tend to do lots of recreational research anyways, so I stumble on various sources of information on a "trickle-in" basis. I'd be happy to share resources, although most of my practice is fairly creative/meditative.
Although, I don't practice much using a single large sword with two hands myself, so my speculative ramblings may be less useful to you. If you've largely practiced with using a sword with two hands, looking into techniques around one-handed swords could spark some creativity and give you unexpected insights into your weapon of choice. I've learned a lot of nuances for the katana from studying the rapier.
I also am a huge fan of maces for tackling the kind of armor you specified. Katana tend to not have a pleasant time against hard metals. For taking on heavy plate and mail, nothing beats a thrusting sword or a hammer/mace. Now if you combined the two, that would be an entertaining prospect.
But if you'd like to describe what you're after in more detail, I'd be happy to help. Although others are probably much better sources of information than me.
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Post by treeslicer on Nov 7, 2017 4:54:48 GMT
I don't give a flying f***k about anything other than being a more effective swordsman, hence I will borrow from any style or tradition I see fit, I will strike to any area that is presented to me. IMHO, combine what Nakamura presents in The Spirit of the Sword with what you can glean from YouTube about Togo Jigen-ryu (the interminable tree-whacking with a bokken, tonbo-no-kamae, the monkey-howl kiai, and the running attack, in particular), apply it to a Satsuma-rigged dotanuki, and heaven help any mere kendoka you charge at. Kendo's a fine sport, and as Nakamura described it, experienced kendoka would transition directly to a gunto from a shinai, and promptly emasculate or otherwise cripple themselves from inability to stop a cut after missing their target, or simply losing control of the sword and having it fly loose and hit themselves. BTW, there's nothing sporting about real combat. For semi-realistic full-contact training fencing with other weapons than the katana (which is nearly impossible to authentically simulate), investigate the SCA.
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Post by treeslicer on Nov 7, 2017 5:07:03 GMT
There's limitations to the English language so that translating some stuff from other languages (Japanese in particular pops into mind) becomes tricky and you're best off reading multiple translations to get the idea. Yup, Japanese (and possibly Hungarian) is credible evidence that we've been visited by space aliens.
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Post by vecna on Nov 7, 2017 10:23:53 GMT
I don't give a flying f***k about anything other than being a more effective swordsman, hence I will borrow from any style or tradition I see fit, I will strike to any area that is presented to me. IMHO, combine what Nakamura presents in The Spirit of the Sword with what you can glean from YouTube about Togo Jigen-ryu (the interminable tree-whacking with a bokken, tonbo-no-kamae, the monkey-howl kiai, and the running attack, in particular), apply it to a Satsuma-rigged dotanuki, and heaven help any mere kendoka you charge at. Kendo's a fine sport, and as Nakamura described it, experienced kendoka would transition directly to a gunto from a shinai, and promptly emasculate or otherwise cripple themselves from inability to stop a cut after missing their target, or simply losing control of the sword and having it fly loose and hit themselves. BTW, there's nothing sporting about real combat. For semi-realistic full-contact training fencing with other weapons than the katana (which is nearly impossible to authentically simulate), investigate the SCA. I very much agree with all of your observations on kendo, the weight of the sword, the physical acceleration and deceleration ( I ALWAYS assume that any given cut is going to miss, and as you said the real limit to how hard you can apply a cut is being able to control the termination if/when you miss) is critical to the style. Having said that I can approach kendo speeds with a 3/4 weight bokken, but a full weight ( similar to around 40in shogun standard katana) broken I am at the moment slower. ( need a lot more strength and conditioning work) . Lol "kendoka would transition directly to a gunto from a shinai, and promptly emasculate or otherwise cripple themselves from inability to stop a cut after missing their target, or simply losing control of the sword and having it fly loose and hit themselves" ABSOLUTLY mate, seen that for real, just not with kendoka. Thanks for the sources will check em out, A few of the things you mention I have already studied, since my first master was verry frigging Japanese, but the rest is on my study list tonight. Oh yes what is SCA?
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Post by vecna on Nov 7, 2017 14:16:15 GMT
No nothing specific, I'm very much open to suggestions. HEMA, hmmmm,. not wishing to be dispariging but skill level of most guys have seen maybe a little low. Maybe because HEMA is so young? Also not a fan of the short hilt long sword used, there is a sweet spot in the ratio between blade length/weight and Hilt length, I don't feel the HEMA long swords hit that sweet spot, but that's just my opinion. I have had a look at a few HEMA instruction videos, what I did like was that the footwork was extensively covered. But a lot of the rest just ain't going to fly at full speed ( murderous intent) , not with the short hilt that long sword anyway. Likewise scoring seems a bit weird, very open to interpretation, in this world of electronics what's wrong with a force sensor somewhere to detect legitimate hit of enough force. But certainly will give it a go, maybe my observations are wrong! you never know lol The role of the hilt length in generating power is not as significant as you might imagine. While there is some push-pull that occurs as a result of the sword and hand movement, the cut's effectiveness depends a lot more on blade alignment and follow-through. Any longsword or katana is sufficient to deliver a lethal blow in unarmored combat. Against armor your techniques must change, since cutting at chain or plate is generally ineffective at least with a sword. The endless drilling and study in HEMA or Kendo are done to make sure you aren't just muscling the blade. It's often a matter of re-learning how to move. Just using power makes you really easy to defeat in any sword system. Oh if you're going against butted chain a few thwacks will start to pull it apart. It's essentially costuming, not armor. But the riveted stuff, especially made by someone who knows how to do it, is a lot tougher to get through. It takes a determined thrust to the right area to have much hope of cracking it open. There are a lot of us fat geeks in HEMA ;-) But there are also some phenomenally skilled athletes. One thing to keep in mind is that HEMA videos are often showing very painstaking reconstruction of techniques from source books. That means moving at very slow speed to demonstrate an interpretation after drilling them for months. There's also slow play to explore these concepts. The full speed work in padded kit and the tournaments are just aspects of the pursuit. It can be frustrating for people who just want to learn how to do it. The problem is nobody really knows all the permutations, particularly in some parts of HEMA. So all those participating must take on the role of scholars and teachers. Well sword fighting as it's been handed down to us often comes in languages other than English. In fact there's not much prior to the 16th century from English sources. And even then you STILL have to know the basic terms from foreign sources. So there's no way to really be useful at HEMA without learning at least the basic terms of German longsword. You don't have to memorize the poetry but you would be wise to learn the hidden strikes and the underlying concepts. Likewise we all need to know the Italian lingo since it plays such a huge role especially in Renaissance swordplay. French is optional though. And humility to the source is also important. For example when we're unraveling some cryptic passage from a seven hundred year old text, we have to work out the potential meanings with drills and freeplay without just discarding the whole thing. Both because that would be self-defeating and because ultimately this stuff does seem to work. And to give us insight into how people fought with swords back when they HAD to fight with them. Overall if you are interested I'd suggest someone like Jake Norwood. He's a vet and a very good, practical instructor. Not too fixated on minutiae though he's very well versed in the German longsword sources. He's got some great videos out there under his name on youtube, and runs his own school. I think the translation thing is very misleading, I totally get that to find the moves needs careful translation, but once found and refined through full speed drill, they can just be given an English name, eg roundhouse kick, or side kick, or tiger claw, they are all just lables given to Chinese stand-up techniques. Its not necessary to retain the original names of anything once the true full meaning has been established. Doing so simply makes it harder to convey the true meaning of a technique in an English speaking country. My first master was japanese, didn't speak a word of english, I dont speak a word of Japanese , but we just made do with good will and body Lang, its after all a physical skill best learned by repetition and manual guidence. I was watching swordfish this year, and I'm assuming that's the best HEMA has? Again really don't want to cause offence, but my initial reaction was, slow, way too slow, not enough awareness of range, especially the critical few inches before sword tips meet, some really sneaky off-angle cuts which are nice, but only really there if opponent is likewise slow. They really would get crushed quickly by the equivelent kendo champion, given same length swords etc etc etc. Maybe its training expectatoons ? I train every day, 2 hours per day, 70% of the time is full power full speed, i am sweating drips at 0 deg c outside in the wind with bare top. And thats prob minimum for a searious swordsman, if im facing competition anywhere near my level, i would want to ramp training to 6 hous per day for a month before the bout . I get the feeling competition kendo guys do about the same. Is that anything like what ghe HEMA guys are doing ? Technique is great, am here looking for techniques after all, but only after I have reached the correct speed and power in the mundane cuts.( i THINK have acheived that speed and power personally , ) Speed kills, as they say, lol Thank you very much for the name, will check Jake out.
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Post by vecna on Nov 7, 2017 15:05:55 GMT
There's limitations to the English language so that translating some stuff from other languages (Japanese in particular pops into mind) becomes tricky and you're best off reading multiple translations to get the idea. I agree some circles are a bit nationalistic and/or pompous about it, but there's some merit to the notion of learning the source language. There's a lot of available material out there inaccessible to me as I haven't taken the time to learn the language, sadly. Some kendo clubs can be stuffy, but others could be much more fun and/or practicality oriented, you just have to shop around for them to find the best fit. I haven't had the best luck, hence I practice by myself almost exclusively, but others have a good amount of luck finding a good fit. Proper kenjutsu isn't really all that prevalent outside of Japan, so that one's trickier. I tend to do lots of recreational research anyways, so I stumble on various sources of information on a "trickle-in" basis. I'd be happy to share resources, although most of my practice is fairly creative/meditative. Although, I don't practice much using a single large sword with two hands myself, so my speculative ramblings may be less useful to you. If you've largely practiced with using a sword with two hands, looking into techniques around one-handed swords could spark some creativity and give you unexpected insights into your weapon of choice. I've learned a lot of nuances for the katana from studying the rapier. I also am a huge fan of maces for tackling the kind of armor you specified. Katana tend to not have a pleasant time against hard metals. For taking on heavy plate and mail, nothing beats a thrusting sword or a hammer/mace. Now if you combined the two, that would be an entertaining prospect. But if you'd like to describe what you're after in more detail, I'd be happy to help. Although others are probably much better sources of information than me. Yes I have been training alone for about 2 years, since my students grew up lol, I def miss the competition, its real hard to push oneself as hard as being in a pitched battle with an opponent that knows all your tricks and weaknesses. But we have what we have, in times past we could walk into a dojo , call out the master and have a good scrap, that's just not going to fly in our modern times.( I know, I've tried it, leads to blank faces, and some Guy trying to sell you a course) Yes I know that maces, shield and military pick is the way to go with plate, but I was under the illusion that I could cut chain with enough force and suitably mimimising the contact area ( thus reaching the necessary force per unit area) its kind of dissapointing to learn this is not the case, and makes the katana that little less attractive. Still the katana is the most soulful of swords, training with it produces the greatest Chi, for that alone will stick with it. I do use a lot of fencing ( sabre) moves, I totally agree can be devistating, especially when opponent is traditional. But nearly always at the very end of a combo.
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Post by treeslicer on Nov 7, 2017 15:34:03 GMT
IMHO, combine what Nakamura presents in The Spirit of the Sword with what you can glean from YouTube about Togo Jigen-ryu (the interminable tree-whacking with a bokken, tonbo-no-kamae, the monkey-howl kiai, and the running attack, in particular), apply it to a Satsuma-rigged dotanuki, and heaven help any mere kendoka you charge at. Kendo's a fine sport, and as Nakamura described it, experienced kendoka would transition directly to a gunto from a shinai, and promptly emasculate or otherwise cripple themselves from inability to stop a cut after missing their target, or simply losing control of the sword and having it fly loose and hit themselves. BTW, there's nothing sporting about real combat. For semi-realistic full-contact training fencing with other weapons than the katana (which is nearly impossible to authentically simulate), investigate the SCA. I very much agree with all of your observations on kendo, the weight of the sword, the physical acceleration and deceleration ( I ALWAYS assume that any given cut is going to miss, and as you said the real limit to how hard you can apply a cut is being able to control the termination if/when you miss) is critical to the style. Having said that I can approach kendo speeds with a 3/4 weight bokken, but a full weight ( similar to around 40in shogun standard katana) broken I am at the moment slower. ( need a lot more strength and conditioning work) . Lol "kendoka would transition directly to a gunto from a shinai, and promptly emasculate or otherwise cripple themselves from inability to stop a cut after missing their target, or simply losing control of the sword and having it fly loose and hit themselves" ABSOLUTLY mate, seen that for real, just not with kendoka. Thanks for the sources will check em out, A few of the things you mention I have already studied, since my first master was verry frigging Japanese, but the rest is on my study list tonight. Oh yes what is SCA? The world's most magnificent way to dress funny, party hearty, make lifelong friends, and get bruised from head to foot with a rattan pole. sca.org/
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Post by vecna on Nov 7, 2017 16:00:40 GMT
Now how cool is SCA lol lol, I'm def there for the next event near me! But not in the winter in sweeden , Jesus those guys must be half Eskimo.
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