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Post by dalamar on Oct 26, 2017 23:54:32 GMT
My review pics: drive.google.com/open?id=0B-6UuGf5j-fJekpXVUlQek9ib28Fittings: -5/5. Pretty, though rough, and definitely not much attention to detail here, and there's not supposed to be fittings on a "qi jian" to begin with so this is already a "qi jian like object", minus 2 stars for that... and minus a whole bunch more for being uneven, god that pisses me off. I'm not even sure the end fitting can be adjusted and I don't wanna mess with it until I talk to Paul. You can see in the pic the actual blade is leaning left on the box and the end fitting is leaning right: drive.google.com/open?id=0B-6UuGf5j-fJNXdMZlJMOFB5UlUDescription: Intentionally Misleading -5/5. It doesn't really ring... at all. Any sword with tight fittings should ring and it should be pronounced on qi jians and viking swords since they are MEANT to be forged of the same contiguous piece of steel AFAIK, down to guard and pommel. Paul even said this to me. Hanwei's Qi as far as I can tell from vids/pics is but they don't sell it anymore so here I am.... The guard on sbg's is made of brass and the pommel is made of brass, there is nothing one billet about this sword. Scabbard: 3/5 Pretty and sword fits tight but the seam line annoys me. Even my secondhand $180 CS gim doesn't have a visible seam line - and I think it was an S&D that was very poorly maintained and had shipping damage from previous owner too! Update: 2nd ring on scabbard (one with loop on it) is not even slightly secure and fell down to a lower ring. I think it was just held with light tension... Blade: Less stiff (wider/thinner) than the CS gim. But it's not like anyone's actually crazy enough to go nuts cutting with swords in this price range, I guess? The polish only looks about 3000-3500 grit to me, though I suppose it might look less grainy after cleaning the oil off. I can definitely get the polish into a better state like I did with the gim but I'm not sure what effect there would be on the fold lines. Handle: Heavy (cotton?) cord wrapped around what looks like ray skin. I wouldn't know if it's real ray skin or not. You can see in the crack that there is a wooden handle under the (ray skin?). Balance and weight: Did not measure where the pob is but it looked about 4 inches as advertised. I think it feels lighter in the hand than the CS gim, even though the gim should actually be a few oz lighter. The handle is so long, I think one handed use would be a bad idea, and I also think a 4" pob is too close to the handle for a two handed sword.. Sharpness: Extreme. Colorful box it shipped in: Latches had so much rust they looked 100 years old... Verdict: Definitely not worth the 900 I paid and I feel sorry for anyone who paid the full price of 1200...at that price there should be a description that isn't misleading and more attention to detail. I would have bought one of the feather steel ones instead! I'm really scared to see what would be under the wrap and wooden handle...
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Post by zabazagobo on Oct 27, 2017 3:43:24 GMT
Whoah, there's no way that's worth $900. The attention to detail is sorely lacking, as you pointed out. That scabbard seam is bad as it is, but that gap between the rayskin and the guard, not to mention how the cord wrap hangs out, how the pommel is crooked, etc., etc.
Are you looking at a return? I probably would be. Those flaws at that price would drive me crazy. I'm curious to see the innards, but I'd save off on disassembly in case that somehow complicates a return.
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Post by nddave on Oct 27, 2017 4:42:15 GMT
That's too bad. Sounds like you got a lemon but if the construction wasn't as described I can understand you're frustration as well. Best bet is to get in contact with Paul and see what he can do for you.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 27, 2017 5:11:27 GMT
and there's not supposed to be fittings on a "qi jian" to begin with so this is already a "qi jian like object", Description: Intentionally Misleading -5/5. It doesn't really ring... at all. Any sword with tight fittings should ring and it should be pronounced on qi jians and viking swords since they are MEANT to be forged of the same contiguous piece of steel AFAIK, down to guard and pommel. Paul even said this to me. Hanwei's Qi as far as I can tell from vids/pics is but they don't sell it anymore so here I am.... The guard on sbg's is made of brass and the pommel is made of brass, there is nothing one billet about this sword. As far as real Qi swords go, they're not one-piece jian the Hanwei version. The usual Qi iron/steel jian would have a flat tang which a guard (often bronze, sometimes jade) is placed over, and a separate pommel pinned to: Viking swords have separately forged (if iron) or cast (if bronze) guards and pommels, too. The Hanwei version is just a fantasy sword attached to the story of Feng Xuan (see below for the relevant part of the story). Yes, Hanwei's version is a one-piece drop-forged sword - all that's added is the grip wrapping. The Hanwei has managed to become the prototype for a bunch of replicas (which might or might not be marketed as "Qi jian"), but mostly not one-piece like the Hanwei. If this one isn't one-piece, and you bought it because it was advertised as such, you could ask about returning it. (Ringing or not ringing isn't a good way to diagnose one-piece construction. Swords with separate pommel and guards will happily ring, as long as the pommel and guard are fitted tightly enough (so that they can't vibrate independently). If the blade, guard, and pommel are one piece, but there is a separate grip, the grip can possibly absorb vibrations well enough to stop ringing.) There is one certain way to tell: I'm really scared to see what would be under the wrap and wooden handle... ... which is to look. Balance and weight: Did not measure where the pob is but it looked about 4 inches as advertised. I think it feels lighter in the hand than the CS gim, even though the gim should actually be a few oz lighter. The handle is so long, I think one handed use would be a bad idea, and I also think a 4" pob is too close to the handle for a two handed sword.. A two-handed sword can be fine balancing at 4". As long as the balance is good for point control for a cut-and-thrust sword (pivot point near the tip) or, if it's intended more for cutting, balance like a good sabre (pivot point maybe 6" to 8" back from the tip). The original source we have for the ringing sword of Feng Xuan:
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admin
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Post by admin on Oct 27, 2017 5:51:09 GMT
Wow, that's bad.. It appears that there has been some miscommunication with this one, definitely not intentionally misleading.. :-(
The Chinese line is mothballed, but I will remove this product entirely and have just sent an email to discuss how to make it right for Dalamar. The $150 declared value is to help with customs fees, which in some countries can be up to 47% of the value, which is a massive unexpected hit for many international buyers and certainly does not reflect the cost or value. But this one is a dog, and makes me feel really bad..
Cannot apologize enough - though I am a little confused about the complaint about it having fittings, as of course this was known at the time of ordering. But everything else is a disgrace and I am deeply unhappy about it..
Will make it right though.
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Post by dalamar on Oct 27, 2017 11:44:29 GMT
I added some blade pics to the folder. There were some scratches that'll take 400-600 grit to remove (5-6hr sanding job as I have no power tools).
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Post by dalamar on Oct 27, 2017 15:02:43 GMT
Added a video as proof of no ring as well.
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admin
Site Admin
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Post by admin on Oct 29, 2017 23:55:07 GMT
Just wanted to update this, Dalamar agreed to a 50% partial refund so the sword has been effectively sold for several hundred dollars below cost price and the item has been deleted from the mothballed Chinese line and will never be offered again.
My most sincere apologies to everyone.
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Post by nddave on Oct 30, 2017 2:38:31 GMT
Just wanted to update this, Dalamar agreed to a 50% partial refund so the sword has been effectively sold for several hundred dollars below cost price and the item has been deleted from the mothballed Chinese line and will never be offered again. My most sincere apologies to everyone. Great follow through Paul. So when you say mothballed do just mean these swords sat unsold for an extended time? I figured this might have been just one bad apple in the barrel but did you find out all of them had issues?
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admin
Site Admin
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Post by admin on Oct 30, 2017 13:31:45 GMT
Actually, by mothballed I mean none of the Chinese line of Forge Direct are currently able to order. It stems from one of many recent blows against an already fragile industry, this one to do with China banning the domestic shipping of swords WITHIN China (so far, international customers are not affected. So far..). The flow on is that generally the market for Chinese swords is 90% domestic (within China) and we aren't sure if all but the most high end (i.e. $10,000-$100,000+) sword makers who specialize in traditional Chinese swords will start to need to look for a new profession.. Now this next comment may well open up a can of worms. But my decision to take such a heavy hit on this piece was not so much due to the perceived flaws (especially after I have had time to look at them in detail tonight, the wrap sticking out is definitely not good, but the scratches are barely perceptible and the wrap looks a little bunched up and could be pushed back down to cover the gap) - it was because the description was unintentionally misleading. I.e. it wasn't made the way I was told it was, nor did it ring like a bell - so I refunded 50% as agreed with the customer (he also had the option to send it back for a full refund). Remember, these swords are not CNC milled, they are hand forged using techniques very similar to what they have been doing there for millennia. Is it slightly asymmetrical. Yes. Are antiques asymertical. You betcha... If you take a look at some of the swords in Records of the Medieval Sword for example, most have wandering fullers, uneven and misaligned hand guards - just google 'antique swords' or 'swords in museums' and if they arrived in pristine condition - most modern collectors would cry foul and demand to send it back.. This post on MyArmory discusses this in more detail: myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=220082And I think the quote below hits the nail on the head. It is kind of sad when collectors buy swords and straight away miss the overall beauty and put the thing under a microscope and try to find the (non fatal) flaws, and dismiss it as rubbish.. It is like what Kult of Athena write on their website under their return policy "a note on perfection" I know all this seems slightly off topic, but now that the issue has been resolved - it bears mentioning - and especially now with the industry so fragile, it bothers me that some people seem to delight in finding imperfections (I am not referring specifically to this customer by the way - I screwed up the description, he was unhappy about it, and he was entitled to whatever he felt was right). Anyway, just wanted to clarify why it was refunded like it was. I feel bad that the description did not match the product. Yes, perfection is possible with hand made swords, the $10,000 Chinese swords and $8K Katana made in Japan are pretty darned close to perfection. But I have seen Katana in Japan that are appreciated by Japanese connoisseurs and that sell for thousands that I think most forumites here would say 'send it back' or 'my $100 Musashi Katana is better' because something was very slightly off.. It is just a bit sad when you consider all the effort and time that goes into making a piece like this. I have seen these guys at work and know just how much time and effort goes into them - so to see a sword maligned because a couple of grind marks could not be hand polished out within the budget set and a bit of the wrap popped out somewhere along the line - its kind of tragic. Just take the pommel - first it is cast, then all the flash is hand filed off, then it is powder coated and someone applies some (expensive) gold and silver gilding. That is at least $50 just for the pommel. Then there is the blade - hand forged, hand folded, ground to shape, heat treated, possibly discarded and done a second time (if the heat treat fails, in some cases it takes 2 or 3 attempts) - then it is sent off for polishing - all by hand mind you - all the components are assembled, and yeah, it might be slightly off center or have a scratch from the grinding that is just a little too deep to completely get out (sure, they could keep going, and going, and going - but they don't work for free, so every extra hour spent will increase the price - the customer mentioned it would take 5-6 hours of hand polishing to get those vestigial scratches out. So how long do you think is needed to get it from the grinder to where it ended up? A lot more than 5 or 6 hours, that is fir sure).. So lets say there is $50 of work and materials in the pommel, $50 in the guard. $150 in the scabbard. $30 in the box. $500-600 in the blade. $50 of rayskin (you can see it is not a thin panel, and as mentioned, if you reasjust the wrap, it will cover it properly), $40 in the wrap (materials and labor, there is about 30-35 knots in there), $40 for the final assembly, packing and inspection, then $60-100 shipping (which was free), and around 4% of the sale price in credit card processing fees ($36). That's well over $1000. But we sold them for $900, and this one, ended up at $450.. (basically, my mistake wiped out the meager profits from the entire promotion, which didn't matter too much anyway as I was doing it to try and keep the Smith going a bit longer in case a solution can be found to their current predicament). Just saying...
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Post by strigoil on Oct 30, 2017 13:56:14 GMT
That was a good writeup and something everyone should take into consideration, as I feel it is spot on.
A note on you saying international customers are not affected yet on the china business, I believe you are wrong and it has indeed started happening, I ordered a Huawei Katana a while back and it was repeatedly returned by chinese outgoing customs until she contacted them and was told they do not allow swords to be shipped to Norway anymore, they are perfectly legal in Norway so it is definitely starting to happen, a quick check on ebay and she no longer ships to Norway at all.
And as for imperfections I 100% agree, of course it depends on the amount of imperfections, how the product was advertised and so on, but on a basic level I can't agree more.
As an example I just received a beautiful dagger by Tod of Tod's Stuff, pictures are in the new acquisitions topic, an amazing dagger in my eyes. Is it perfect? No, the cross section of the blade on one side is 3 millimeters off center, it is quite noticeable on such a thin blade, one of the guards quillons is not entirely straight with the other, the bronze fittings have several imperfections and dents and scratches, you can see them in the picture, I just think it makes it much better looking that way, does not look like it came off an assembly line.
Did I contact Tod about it? Yes I did, I wanted to know if this was within the norm of his work and give him a heads up that there were some imperfections, but that I loved the dagger very much. He offered me to have it remade at no extra cost and without wait time if I felt the need, I absolutely did not, it is a beautiful piece and not being perfect gives it character, it does not affect how useful the item would have been for its intended use back in the day, and I doubt it would have been scoffed at back then either.
That said Tod clearly advertises how he makes his items, they are hand made as traditional as possible with imperfections, he takes pride in being historically accurate and I applaud him for it.
Was this an Albion that came with a quillons not aligned and a noticable at glance off center fuller/cross section I would likely have been less happy, as they advertise their products in an entirely different way, I expect a high degree of perfection from them and that is what they go for.
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Post by dalamar on Oct 30, 2017 18:20:01 GMT
I just gave it a 4 hour polish, it looks a lot nicer now though I was too lazy to get all the scratches. Pic is in the OP drive folder. Now just need to figure out what to do about certain parts of the grip snagging cloths when I wipe... and the bronze bit above the guard also rubs on the scabbard fitting (I wasn't joking when I said it was tight), it's starting to wear the coating on the bronze after only a few pulls.
It isn't a bad sword, it's much better than what you would get from sinosword at least from pics I've seen. I think deleting the product entirely was overkill, it would have been enough to just remove the part about ringing (and use some better pics like mine, I don't care if they are reposted).
I just really wish it could ring like hanwei's.
As to flaws..being a perfectionist if I was the smith I would have tried to do better before sending it off. I don't know their situation at the forge or what kind of quotas our mystery smith had though. I would expect errata on production swords more than I would on hand made.
Edit: and this thing came sharp. like, as sharp as I make my knives with 4 different grit stones (100-2k) sharp. I nicked myself a few times polishing and I hardly touched it.
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Post by catshreds on Nov 1, 2017 23:39:34 GMT
How refreshing to find a forum where one can share their disappointment in a purchase without being snarky. Then, an educational response from the admin, that did not denigrate the OP and in fact offered a couple of reasonable solutions. In this day and age it is great to find a spot where sane minds still exist!!!
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Post by dalamar on Nov 3, 2017 4:59:44 GMT
Update: 2nd ring on scabbard (one with loop on it) is not even slightly secure and fell down to a lower ring. I think it was just held with light tension...
In comparison, the ones on the CS gim are glued and pinned.
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Post by zabazagobo on Nov 3, 2017 23:24:13 GMT
Wait, are you referring to the one ring that's metal with the loop on the flat side? It slipped down the scabbard? (A pic would help me understand exactly what you mean).
The polishing up you did looks pretty nice, helped round out some of the blemishes. Glad that went well. And cool to hear it's scary sharp, It could just be me but when a blade nicks you, you gain a new respect for it haha.
Also good to see that you got a partial refund on it (and kudos to Paul for the quick and fair response). At this price range the flaws you've noted would drive me nuts (and I'm far from a perfectionist). I'm fair about flaws on swords (I'm cordial about playing the fidget and fix game with ito on an expensive Hanwei katana for example), but as prices increase attention to detail should as well. So I completely sympathize with you here.
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Post by dalamar on Nov 5, 2017 10:03:11 GMT
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Post by zabazagobo on Nov 6, 2017 17:50:33 GMT
So that ring wasn't even glued/pinned in place, as you said. That's really disappointing to see, especially since it makes the belt ring setup unwieldy.
I'm with you on wishing this had more attention to detail (and perhaps quality control). I have the same jian from Cold Steel that you do and the scabbard ornaments and belt loop are of a very solid construction. Seeing this issue on a much more expensive sword is pretty unimpressive, especially considering the issues with the scabbard seam, etc.
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Post by johnwalter on Nov 30, 2017 19:43:39 GMT
Somebody actually bought one of these?
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stormmaster
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I like viking/migration era swords
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Post by stormmaster on Nov 30, 2017 19:45:54 GMT
Out of all the forge direct pieces this one was the weirdest looking
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Post by dalamar on Dec 1, 2017 0:39:21 GMT
Am I really the only one that bought one of the chinese line? The other rings were loose too - the lower one was the only one glued (like 1/4 of the ring) but clearly it didn't hold. Would not support that forge even though ronin got their feather steel ones back in stock. That's exceptionally lazy. You can't tell me it costs a lot to glue or pin some bronze rings in place... I really hope it's not the same forge they use for katanas...
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