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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2017 22:01:17 GMT
Good God, its been a while since I posted a thread, but I have been ticked off.
Have I critically refuted or denied or added (even constructive) criticism and negative comments since I joined the forum? It's been over one year now...I have had crises of faith regarding swords, and my future in ever owning one etc, but this is outright bad.
Anyone remember the thread I posted asking for opinions on a Dha Demo? I don't even know what to ask for this:
And then comes this:
And the pain keeps going on, apart from swords:
Really just watch the channel randomly...
I don't mean to offend anyone, but I am probably doing that right now. Before I rattle off and start a rant about why hate this, (and I hate to say this and put you guys prone to grievous harm that may accompany watching the above), any comments?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 8, 2017 0:07:02 GMT
Regarding carrying dha: To proclaim "and especially not like this", when that method is traditionally very common, and well-attested in contemporary photos and art, is a bit much. The whole point of the rope baldric is to let you carry it hands-free. To merely use the baldric as a handle misses the main point. Quick-draw isn't the point - ease of carry is the point.
45 Techniques against Straight Punches: Better to have 1-3 techniques that work, and that you have drilled enough to be able to make them work, than a long catalog. Some of the 45 are good (e.g., more or less what boxers use), and some are a bit silly. A catalog like this is just the first step. Next step is to drill a selection of them, with progressively less compliance from the training partner, until one can seriously attempt them in sparring. The next step after that is to work on application in sparring.
Beginner class workout: Some effective conditioning work in there. Some stuff in there I wouldn't get students to do, but lots of good stuff. (I don't tend to do that much conditioning work when I run classes (TKD), because enough other instructors will. By "I wouldn't get students to do", I mean I wouldn't get them to do it even if I wanted to do a conditioning-heavy session.)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2017 8:13:45 GMT
Regarding carrying dha: To proclaim "and especially not like this", when that method is traditionally very common, and well-attested in contemporary photos and art, is a bit much. The whole point of the rope baldric is to let you carry it hands-free. To merely use the baldric as a handle misses the main point. Quick-draw isn't the point - ease of carry is the point. 45 Techniques against Straight Punches: Better to have 1-3 techniques that work, and that you have drilled enough to be able to make them work, than a long catalog. Some of the 45 are good (e.g., more or less what boxers use), and some are a bit silly. A catalog like this is just the first step. Next step is to drill a selection of them, with progressively less compliance from the training partner, until one can seriously attempt them in sparring. The next step after that is to work on application in sparring. Beginner class workout: Some effective conditioning work in there. Some stuff in there I wouldn't get students to do, but lots of good stuff. (I don't tend to do that much conditioning work when I run classes (TKD), because enough other instructors will. By "I wouldn't get students to do", I mean I wouldn't get them to do it even if I wanted to do a conditioning-heavy session.) You see, my main problem regarding these videos are the following: 1- A Thai sword scabbard CAN be used as a weapon and very effectively. But such carry is rare and only taught to a fighter in case they are caught off guard when they are off duty or wandering in a presumably safe area. Many of these techniques are downright ineffective and are taught to be avoided, since these can do more harm than good. 2- Don't even know what to say about the European vs Dha demonstration. You can judge by the faces that they want it to be over with. 3- This is just a demo of what seems to be a recurrent theme with the so-called Pahuyuth. Around 11-13 techniques are the ones that are used in Muay Boran, and the others are just downright comical. Even Hollywood wouldn't use those techniques, not even in a comedy fight. 4- And again, some of these exercises are ones that are extensively used by existing Thai arts. But the majority of these (especially when it has been specified that they are beginners), are just harmful. Stepping or putting pressure on the abs is not done until you are sure they are proficient in tensing them properly, after which it just becomes a measure of the level of conditioning. And why would he step ON THEIR BACKS when they are suspended like that? It is one thing to add resistance to that exercise with weights or by pressing or leaning on the back and entirely unnecessary when someone actually STEPS up on them. This is the sort of 'macho' conditioning concept that ends up harming people for life. And then the pain just doesn't end there. Check this video out: This video is a literal exploitation of the fact that around 80% of people watching it wouldn't know what that book was, and what the wordings meant or even care to research into it more. Swordmaninexile is a very famous source of knowledge for almost all communities in regards to information about Thai weaponry. He has been featured on Nat Geo, Discovery, Thai National TV, holds around 8 letters of commendation for restoring efforts in regards to Thai wepaonry and its history, and above all, is regarded as one of the country's top smiths who still remember the old words of 'spells' that were written on blades. And even THAT person said openly that the translation of the book was more misinformation than fact.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 8, 2017 11:03:30 GMT
1- A Thai sword scabbard CAN be used as a weapon and very effectively. But such carry is rare and only taught to a fighter in case they are caught off guard when they are off duty or wandering in a presumably safe area. Many of these techniques are downright ineffective and are taught to be avoided, since these can do more harm than good. Yes, a lot of the things he shows are pretty pointless. At best, a more difficult way to achieve something that could be done simply (and that kind of complication could get you killed in a real fight). Perhaps he does it so that he can say "I teach 38 different techniques for drawing a sword", hoping that prospective students will equate "more" with "better". Common enough. Not a good thing, but IMO nothing to get upset about - people will run around doing silly things if they want. It's more or less harmless. If they do sparring in any useful sense, the students will figure out quickly what is just silly stuff that won't work. If they're not doing sparring in any useful sense, then they're not going to be learning how to fight anyway, and they might as well occupy their time with silly stuff. If there is anything he does about drawing that's actively bad, as opposed to just silly, it's wrapping the fingers around the scabbard when he draws. Most of the time, it's safe enough. But it doesn't take that much to put the edge through the front of a typical dha scabbard, and I wouldn't want my fingers in the way if the edge comes through. 2- Don't even know what to say about the European vs Dha demonstration. You can judge by the faces that they want it to be over with. Indeed. I couldn't think of anything to say about it either. 3- This is just a demo of what seems to be a recurrent theme with the so-called Pahuyuth. Around 11-13 techniques are the ones that are used in Muay Boran, and the others are just downright comical. Even Hollywood wouldn't use those techniques, not even in a comedy fight. Yes, a mix of good and silly. As above, the silly stuff is basically harmless. 4- And again, some of these exercises are ones that are extensively used by existing Thai arts. But the majority of these (especially when it has been specified that they are beginners), are just harmful. Stepping or putting pressure on the abs is not done until you are sure they are proficient in tensing them properly, after which it just becomes a measure of the level of conditioning. And why would he step ON THEIR BACKS when they are suspended like that? It is one thing to add resistance to that exercise with weights or by pressing or leaning on the back and entirely unnecessary when someone actually STEPS up on them. This is the sort of 'macho' conditioning concept that ends up harming people for life. Yes, the back-standing at 1:25 is best avoided. I'd also avoid the straight-leg sit-ups at 2:05, which can be hard on the lower back. The rest is OK in general, but much if it would be a difficult workout for beginners. The standing on the abs is pretty harmless. Entirely harmless if done well (by the stepper).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2017 11:16:44 GMT
Timo Nieminen: My major complaint is how they are presenting the knowledge. They are openly demeaning something that Thailand had been trying to restore for the last 20-25 years now. And they are VERY vocal about it. I didn't just chance upon those videos, they were literally emailed to me with a link to their channel as they wanted me to 'recognize the real art and defect to it'. Plus, the general view about Thai arts is pretty much non-existent, and adding this and it's rapidly increasing popularity to the mix, is doing more harm than good. Lastly, they aren't just sparring or dry handling the weapons. They have proper competitions and even Self-defense based classes that has it's foundation in THESE techniques.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 8, 2017 12:05:35 GMT
Thai MA in general have very good visibility and excellent reputation. That's dominated by Muay Thai, but that has drawn in recognition of Muay Thai's relatives. Thai armed MA don't have much visibility or respect (also true of most armed MAs). I see that plenty of their videos on youtube have like:dislike ratios of 1:5, and plenty of comments to match. Doesn't look like they're fooling anyone. I wonder how long before they set their videos to "no comments"? Lastly, they aren't just sparring or dry handling the weapons. They have proper competitions and even Self-defense based classes that has it's foundation in THESE techniques. I'd be interested to see any video of their competitions. I don't expect that they'd be what I'd call "proper". Looking at their channel, the only sparring I see is slow-motion stuff, very LARPy. They're not going to produce effective fighters if that's all they do.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2017 12:29:39 GMT
I'd be interested to see any video of their competitions. I don't expect that they'd be what I'd call "proper". Looking at their channel, the only sparring I see is slow-motion stuff, very LARPy. They're not going to produce effective fighters if that's all they do. Of course they aren't proper. They do, however, take place and they have no rules. I saw a few videos through my subscription for World Martial Art Meeting 2017, where they apparently challenged a Muay Thai fighter. Their fighter was badly injured in the resulting fight and ended up with a TKO. They later blamed it on the presence of 'rules that had no place for a battlefield martial art'. I will try linking the video here.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 8, 2017 20:25:16 GMT
Heh! "Rules" is a common excuse for failure in competitive fighting, or as a reason to not compete. "Our techniques which are banned by the rules are too deadly for the ring/octagon." The should have jumped at the chance in the early UFC fights, which banned only biting and eye gouging (the next rule, no fish-hooking, only came in UFC12).
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Post by stopped1 on Oct 8, 2017 23:28:46 GMT
I am in two minds about it. Having no knowledge about Thai MA, I am wondering if there were obscure schools that taught these of sword carrying/fighting techniques?
Having done JSA for many years, there are some Iai koryu kata that boardline on being stupid but it gets taught because it was taught before. As for the 45 techniques against a straight punch, as my kung fu teacher puts it, there are many ways to do things, it is up to the fighter to find out what works for them thru sparring.
Euro sword vs dha (or jian/dao/katana). Please, people need to stop that. There is no better or worse, just different. If armoured knights and Thai swordsmen ever fought ag!inst each other in the past, both side would have modified their techniques very quickly. Sword masters and school founder weren't stupid, they developed things that worked at the time and the really practical techniques flourished. So unless we have a sword version of MMA, there is no point putting two styles from two different time periods even.
Yes I hate it when people say, oh but I am not allowed to use this and that techniques, if anything, it should how inflexible one is. This is as absurd as a basketball player trying to pick up the ball in a soccer match. Or how about people actually shoot at eachother in jukendo?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2017 6:59:38 GMT
I am in two minds about it. Having no knowledge about Thai MA, I am wondering if there were obscure schools that taught these of sword carrying/fighting techniques? That is a high possibility. However, Thai MA does not have a very strong history of preservation after power was divided between the government and king. And as war threats lessened, people began to concentrate more on the sport aspect of the art, leading to many traditional schools filtering and decanting techniques to be used in the ring and completely exterminating the rest. As Pahuyuth claims so many things, one does stand correct. There was indeed an elite force of operatives directly under the king, and which was pretty much obscure from view of the general public and army. These people could be generals or mere foot soldiers. They were highly trained and knew the bare raw martial art. Each of these people had different specialities. Some people say there were around 10 people in this group, others claim a dozen. What is generally accepted by historians is that, by mural carvings and stone art on temples and tombs, there could have been 10-15 people. And each had their own lineage. Later on, as sport Muay Thai grew, this group disbanded, and went obsolete, or so was thought. Near the end of 1900s, sport Muay Thai was in full swing. This led to many martial artists questioning its origins. Thailand's government had a big part in the revival of traditional arts. The start came once a group of three individuals stepped forward to provide help with restoration efforts. One of these individuals, Master Woody as he is commonly known, came forward with manuscripts in forms of scrolls that had been passed into his family and discovered his lineage from one of the aforementioned group. Later on, Ajarn De Cesaris (now Bramajarn Marco De Cesaris) discovered writings on temple walls and tombs that led to a full blown effort to revive the art. This led to some closeted members of the lineage of the 'King's Guard' to reveal themselves and be registered. These people brought forth knowledge, which was recorded individuallly. However, on inspections, all this knowledge came together to form a large cohesive collection of techniques etc, that varied by school. Currently, most of the arts have been deciphered and are being taught by the masters. An example is Muay Chaiya, that is being headed by Kruu Praeng. Some of these masters prefer the quiet and peace of a normal life and therefore, are registered but not known publicly. A total of 50-55 masters are currently in registration, out of which only 15-20 teach openly. What Pahuyuth does get wrong is its constant yearning for people to realize that it is the only art that was used. It was a pre-cursor art, yes. But it was ONE of the many arts that led to the formation of Krabi Krabong and Muay Boran (both of which are general and umbrella terms for a collection of arts). And like many arts (e.g., we do know some of the Indio-Chinese arts that were the starting martial arts, but we have no more knowledge of them), if there was any knowledge left of Pahuyuth, it would probably have been noted, or found in a cogent form.
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Post by stopped1 on Oct 9, 2017 8:26:53 GMT
What Pahuyuth does get wrong is its constant yearning for people to realize that it is the only art that was used. It was a pre-cursor art, yes. But it was ONE of the many arts that led to the formation of Krabi Krabong and Muay Boran (both of which are general and umbrella terms for a collection of arts). And like many arts (e.g., we do know some of the Indio-Chinese arts that were the starting martial arts, but we have no more knowledge of them), if there was any knowledge left of Pahuyuth, it would probably have been noted, or found in a cogent form. So does Pahuyuth have proper documented lineage? Or is it a reconstructed art sort of like some HEMA schools (I am not knocking those HEMA schools, it is ok to reconstruct an old art, it is great)? I really hate it when people go on and on about how their art is best/only ..... there is no such thing, each to its own merit. I do 2 JSA and recently started to kung fu, the main reason why I pick this kung fu school (apart that the fact that they do two handed saber) is that the teacher is very open minded, he accepts that other techniques have their merits, we just don't do it within the confine of the style. And he also accepts that I am struggling to do things certain way because of my other arts and I do things out of habit/reflex but I am trying to do things the way they teach while I am training there. Been to a few newbies classes of several different styles from several parts of the world, too many of them seem to think their way is the only way, it is sad.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2017 9:59:14 GMT
What Pahuyuth does get wrong is its constant yearning for people to realize that it is the only art that was used. It was a pre-cursor art, yes. But it was ONE of the many arts that led to the formation of Krabi Krabong and Muay Boran (both of which are general and umbrella terms for a collection of arts). And like many arts (e.g., we do know some of the Indio-Chinese arts that were the starting martial arts, but we have no more knowledge of them), if there was any knowledge left of Pahuyuth, it would probably have been noted, or found in a cogent form. So does Pahuyuth have proper documented lineage? Or is it a reconstructed art sort of like some HEMA schools (I am not knocking those HEMA schools, it is ok to reconstruct an old art, it is great)? I really hate it when people go on and on about how their art is best/only ..... there is no such thing, each to its own merit. I do 2 JSA and recently started to kung fu, the main reason why I pick this kung fu school (apart that the fact that they do two handed saber) is that the teacher is very open minded, he accepts that other techniques have their merits, we just don't do it within the confine of the style. And he also accepts that I am struggling to do things certain way because of my other arts and I do things out of habit/reflex but I am trying to do things the way they teach while I am training there. Been to a few newbies classes of several different styles from several parts of the world, too many of them seem to think their way is the only way, it is sad. I hate it too and that is the very reason I am so ticked off. Plus, they really have no basis for what they teach, aren't well known in Thailand, and according to the reply I just get from IMBA and Bramajarn Marco De Cesaris, it is an ancient art and teaching is no problem at all. However, they haven't found any tangible details to actually be practicing it. Plus, he advised to steer clear of this particular group, since it seems to even discredit other more well-informed people. They have been asked to provide any information multiple times by IMBA and T.A.M.A.R but have been silent.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2017 10:00:38 GMT
Plus, I wouldn't be thinking and hating on it too hard, had they not been teaching 'Self-Defense'. That could end up getting someone hurt and damage reputation of any related or unrelated martial arts.
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Post by MOK on Oct 9, 2017 10:50:58 GMT
Watched the first video, and while I really couldn't say about authenticity, I thought it seemed reasonable - if very awkwardly demonstrated - for the first few moments until they got to the "draw limiter" and "magic spells" and twirly ninja tricks...
PS. I don't speak German so most of the second video is just lost on me, but he seems to keep "defeating" attacks by simply no-selling them... The "45 techniques against straight punches" also include some common sense ones, but then there are a whole lot that can only work in slow motion with a co-operating "opponent", often a symptom of a school that completely eschews sparring with any intent or opposition (which is usually a major red flag).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 22:59:03 GMT
On the straight punches, there's some things I'm not a fan of, but a single time counter attack with a head, throat, or solar plexus target should be fairly self evident - guiding the punch offline with one hand and creaming the guy with the other doesn't by any means depend on slow delivery or "co-operation" whatever that means. We don't really need to see a bloody nose to get the idea, do we?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 12, 2017 0:42:56 GMT
On the straight punches, there's some things I'm not a fan of, but a single time counter attack with a head, throat, or solar plexus target should be fairly self evident - guiding the punch offline with one hand and creaming the guy with the other doesn't by any means depend on slow delivery or "co-operation" whatever that means. It works for real. The demo shows it working in a slow compliant drill, but that doesn't mean that it only works in a slow compliant drill. But a student is unlikely to be able to apply it for real if all their training with the technique has been slow compliant drill. If that's all they've trained with, that's the level at which they can reliably perform it (and hopefully they have a good chance of success at the next level). Slow drill is the first step, to understand the motion. The next step is still compliant drill, but faster. Then you reduce the level of compliance and choreography progressively. The final level of drill is to apply it in full-speed sparring.
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Post by MOK on Oct 13, 2017 1:54:11 GMT
On the straight punches, there's some things I'm not a fan of, but a single time counter attack with a head, throat, or solar plexus target should be fairly self evident - guiding the punch offline with one hand and creaming the guy with the other doesn't by any means depend on slow delivery or "co-operation" whatever that means. We don't really need to see a bloody nose to get the idea, do we? Sure, many of the shown moves are just good old common sense block-and-counter, nothing special, all solid. But others...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2017 2:59:26 GMT
So I have to say something so I can receive notifs on this n
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2017 17:39:05 GMT
So, all the while since I decided to become vocal about what I consider blatant disrespect for any martial art, I started looking and searching for even more information. I came across a lot more, including stuff that, e.g., disregarded Karate saying it was useless in current living and that someone had found the original ‘precursor’ Aryan art that made ALL martial arts. I openly criticized and as a result, got my IP banned at numerous places, but not before letting open the bag of curiosity, so that the cats may be drawn and decide if curiosity does kill the cat or let it survive.
On one such occasion (I have searched into 3 such things, one German in source and two others that are Asian), I came across Papa Machete’s school of Haitian Machete Martial Arts. Daring to test its legitimacy, I went through a lot of hardship (two days of questions by through emails actually) and came across a student of this discipline.
In short, it seems it is quite legitimate in its thinking and technique, as fleeting as it may sound.
Here’s an intro by NatGeo. Feel free to let me know if something about it needs enlightenment, I will try my best to elucidate it with my own limited venture into the theoretical aspect of this art:
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Post by MOK on Oct 17, 2017 19:36:32 GMT
Oh, that "Papa Machete" thing is entirely authentic, as far as I can tell.
What's more, he never made any outlandish claims about having resurrected the one true ancient ancestral martial art from which all others are descended, either, or anything like that - it's just a style of fighting passed down in his family that he wanted to teach and preserve. That kind of honesty and humility gets a lot more respect from me than obvious self-aggrandizing bullsemprini, even if what I've seen of his work wasn't so much more grounded and down to earth. (There's actually a lot in that video that resembles German messer and Caucasian shashqa play - not always in detail of execution, but there's clearly a common basis of underlying tactical and structural principles, just as you'd expect with arts focused on similar weapons in similar contexts.)
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