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Post by loneronin on Aug 19, 2017 21:02:08 GMT
Good day everyone, i am Kenjutsu practitioner for a couple years now but i personaly don't think the training helped or will help me to defeat an opponent in a real sword fight. That's is because we don't spar in our dojo (so the techniques can not be proven for "applicability"), and i found out that most other kenjutsu-ryu don't spar as well. There ar some exceptions, but i will mention them later. I don't think that kendo will help me to get fit for real sword fights, because they train with strike zones (they are needed, because the armor does not protect all areas of the body) And don't get me wrong, i don't want to offend anyone, but that's my personal opinion. There are some Kenjutsu-ryu (toyama-ryu for example) who spar/ free-fight: 1. 2. But i don't think there a such dojos outside japan or close to me. So i asked my sensei for sparring in HEMA Armor without strike zones; blunt training swords and poleamrs. He is okay with that. What do you think about it, do you have any Tips or suggestions about armor, weapons and training rules for me, or do you think this will not work? I wonder if the katana is not too stiff to train with it (thrusts). And another question: Do you know any Books written in medieval japan like the gorin no sho - Miyamoto Musashi; Hagakure - Tsunetomo Yamamoto ;The Path of the Samurai - Yagyu Munenori for example. Are there original fencing books like the books from Johann Liechtenauer (european middle ages) from that time area? At last i want to say that my english isn't the best, sorry for that. And thank you for your replies . Greetings from Germany: Loneronin
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 19, 2017 21:53:43 GMT
i am Kenjutsu practitioner for a couple years now but i personaly don't think the training helped or will help me to defeat an opponent in a real sword fight. That's is because we don't spar in our dojo (so the techniques can not be proven for "applicability"), Testing the techniques for applicability isn't the main point of sparring. If the school teaches nonsense techniques, they will be quite capable of sparring that allows those nonsense techniques to work (unless they're really, really ineffective nonsense, but then it should be obvious even without sparring). In my experience traditional kenjutsu teaches effective techniques. The point is to learn stuff beyond technique. Timing, a sense of distance, reading an opponent, learning to feint effectively. Doing stuff when your opponent isn't cooperating. Note that you will learn a lot of this from any sword sparring, not just kenjutsu sparring. So one simple solution is to not worry about finding kenjutsu sparring - just join a local HEMA group and spar with them. Specifically, spar with longsword where you have the greatest commonality of technique. Spar HEMA longsword, keep training kenjutsu. So i asked my sensei for sparring in HEMA Armor without strike zones; blunt training swords and poleamrs. He is okay with that. What do you think about it, do you have any Tips or suggestions about armor, weapons and training rules for me, or do you think this will not work?. Bokken with protective gloves and eye/face protection will work if you spar well short of full contact. Bokken are very stiff, and some chest protection (e.g., a gambeson) is good if you'll do lots of thrusts (even with light contact). Things like the Cold Steel polypropylene bokken are much more flexible than wooden bokken. Up the armour to typical HEMA protection for sparring with steel, and you can use blunt steel safely enough (but see below). I wonder if the katana is not too stiff to train with it (thrusts). If all you do is take a katana, and blunt the edge, it'll be stiffer than what many people consider to be safe for full-contact sword sparring. But the same can be said for some blunt longswords, and even purpose-built HEMA/WMA swords, like the Albion Liechtenauer trainer. Use a sparring tool that works with your sparring rules. Get a sparring katana made that's flexible enough. E.g., see Regenyei's: www.regenyei.com/en_others_others.php
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Aug 19, 2017 22:56:28 GMT
Testing the techniques for applicability isn't the main point of sparring. If the school teaches nonsense techniques, they will be quite capable of sparring that allows those nonsense techniques to work (unless they're really, really ineffective nonsense, but then it should be obvious even without sparring). I'm going to depart from this is one respect. One thing sparring does is be really unsympathetic on bad mechanics. You can make any sort of device work with broken wrist positions/bad structure/etc if you are having a high level of compliance. Sparring is much less compliant, and hence makes it much harder to assume your poorly developed mechanics are actually functional. I may be putting words in your mouth (and if I've mistaken what you're saying this should still be valuable to other people reading) but even if you are doing a legitimate technique if you are performing it poorly it is just the same as a nonsense technique. You could have two schools which have the same on-paper curriculum, but one only teaches based on things that work with compliance and the other is more rigorous in their approach. The first school will likely be garbage, and the second less so (of course their actual level of competency will depend on a lot of things). But unless you are experienced you would probably think the two schools are doing the same techniques, even though from a practical point of view they are clearly not. Other than that I don't have anything much to add in respects to the approach you recommended for gearing up. I would also add that it might be worth it to look into synthetic sparring first. It's not nearly as good as steel, but if you don't have access to safe steel trainers it might help bridge the gap. Both Purpleheart and Blackfencer make synthetic Katana.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 20, 2017 1:31:49 GMT
I'm going to depart from this is one respect. One thing sparring does is be really unsympathetic on bad mechanics. You can make any sort of device work with broken wrist positions/bad structure/etc if you are having a high level of compliance. Sparring is much less compliant, and hence makes it much harder to assume your poorly developed mechanics are actually functional. Controlled drills with good instructors are better for developing good mechanics. Sparring will (sometimes) filter (some) bad technique, but it's poor for developing good technique. How well sparring filters bad techniques depends on the kind of sparring, and the particular technique. Light contact sparring is often poor for filtering bad technique/mechanics. Sparring with lots of protective gear is often poor for filtering bad defensive technique (one sees people just trading blows with no attention to defence). Hard-contact sparring with minimal protection can be very good for filtering bad defensive technique. But the defender needs to be skilled enough to actually use the defensive technique before they can find out whether their mechanics are sound. A pre-arranged partner drill will do this better. One thing sparring can be poor at encouraging is good cutting mechanics. In particular, it can encourage percussive blows rather than effective slicing. Solution: drills with good instruction, and/or actually cutting things. One thing sparring is very good for is forcing the adjustment from large-motion formal technique to small-motion practical technique. I may be putting words in your mouth (and if I've mistaken what you're saying this should still be valuable to other people reading) but even if you are doing a legitimate technique if you are performing it poorly it is just the same as a nonsense technique. You could have two schools which have the same on-paper curriculum, but one only teaches based on things that work with compliance and the other is more rigorous in their approach. The first school will likely be garbage, and the second less so (of course their actual level of competency will depend on a lot of things). But unless you are experienced you would probably think the two schools are doing the same techniques, even though from a practical point of view they are clearly not. This is, IMO, a different issue. There are plenty of examples in unarmed MA. Some of the guilty schools spar (within the school, so it's bad technique against bad technique). The best solution is to have a good school instead of a bad school. Where two schools practice similar-looking technique, and one school can't apply it against resisting partners (and the other school can), there isn't always something wrong with the first school's technique. The technique can be good. It's just that you need more than just the ability to perform the technique in isolation to be able to use it effectively. A risk of treating sparring as a method for testing what techniques are effective is that you reject good technique that you haven't yet learned to use effectively in sparring. Better to learn good technique and then treat sparring as an exercise for learning how to apply that technique. Some good technique is very difficult to use in sparring. Answer: train more.
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Aug 20, 2017 8:04:04 GMT
I've always been of the belief that sparring/competition doesn't encourage good mechanics, but that it exposes bad ones. Which is the first step to getting better. And you are making a lot of assumptions about people's ability to use good drills with adequate feedback for improvement. It is the optimal approach, provided that you have access to the requisite knowledge to make sure your drilling is actually making you better. Which given the state of the HEMA community, is a BIG if. I tend to assume if someone is on a sword collectors forum looking for advice I'm probably not dealing with someone lucky enough to have a good instructor. So what I would recommend for someone here is different that what I would tell someone at my school.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 20, 2017 23:03:46 GMT
Sparring is absolutely essential in my own experience. It's certainly true that specific techniques rarely show up in pure form in sparring, but drilling them helps you understand how a system organizes movement in time and space, which is critical. Putting rubber on the road lets you see what clearly isn't working and helps you understand how to revisit and further develop your form. You WILL fail. You WILL look like crap. And maybe that's why there's a reluctance to do it.
That said, there are a lot of ways to approach sparring and I've found it useful to do as many as possible. From slow play without armor to fast work without armor (my favorite but also the most dangerous) to full intention sparring in gear. All of it has taught me and continues to teach me. I continue to screw up, to look like crap. But I also notice I'm beating a lot more people as I do more, and learning more about my school of study. If our group never got out and sparred--particularly outside the dojo--we'd never really know if what we were doing had any merit. But since we do, we can come to events and try things out. Some fall apart and give food for thought. For example for a long time we couldn't make a treadthrough from the schutzen to second work in freeplay or sparring. Recently we started exploring line crossing to create a new angle of attack, and sure enough what we end up with both works better and matches the text. The next step will be to take that along with a dozen other ideas to Berlin to try them out. Then go back and rehash, revamp and try again.
No question, but there isn't really a substitute for the process that I know of. Babies get tossed out with bathwater, but you can find them again wiggling around years later. We just did that today in exploring some permutations on Prima that we had dismissed years ago. Now, looking again and with a better understanding of the entire text, the original approach seems to make more sense. Keeping an open mind and constantly revisiting your source is critical.
I think this is part of why repetitious practice and memorized verse was invented to begin with. It forces students to always come home to the same core concepts. You see this east and west alike. I find copying and studying the text to be very valuable. Memorizing is even better. It becomes part of your core.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 21, 2017 0:17:25 GMT
On a more technical level, keep in mind that the more HEMA gear you put on, the more your techniques may be compromised. Unless you are replicating the JSA equivalent of harnessfetchen, you may find problems with the results. That is not to say gear is bad. But you have to keep in mind that full kit tends to encourage very bold and even reckless attacks. It also makes more subtle interplay more difficult, since your senses are all dulled.
If you're using steel I'd suggest not just blunting a katana. Blunted swords are still swords, and will pose a real danger unless there is both sufficient width at the edge and a lack of cutting geometry. You can always use wood so long as you exercise control. HEMA kit tends to be overly padded around the back and torso and under-protected at shoulders, eblows, wrists and hips. Adding skirting and plastic jack chains isn't a bad idea. Back of the head protection is very important for helmets.
Gloves are the real problem, and a lot of people are working to fix that problem. The only reasonably safe ones for full tilt thwackery are the lobster claw style, and even those have exposures. But they very seriously impede range of motion and everyone would like something better. Some five finger gloves are in R&D that may solve the problem. Who knows.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 21, 2017 8:19:59 GMT
No question, but there isn't really a substitute for the process that I know of. Babies get tossed out with bathwater, but you can find them again wiggling around years later. We just did that today in exploring some permutations on Prima that we had dismissed years ago. Now, looking again and with a better understanding of the entire text, the original approach seems to make more sense. Keeping an open mind and constantly revisiting your source is critical. It's absolutely essential if you're developing a martial art, including trying to reverse-engineer a MA from cryptic sources. However, for the OP, with a couple of years of experience in a kenjutsu school - learning existing technique - sparring shouldn't have testing whether techniques work as the main focus. The main focus should be learning how to make the techniques work with a non-compliant training partner (or non-compliant sporting opponent), learning all of the stuff beyond basic technique. If somebody hasn't sparred before, and fails in their attempt to apply some technique in sparring, I don't think that the first response should be to blame the technique per se. Given enough experience, for both people sparring, then one can seriously think about testing technique per se.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Aug 21, 2017 14:24:26 GMT
Most has been said, I just want to chime in with the offer to help if there are any questions regarding the German HEMA scene as I am a HEMA instructor in Ulm, Germany and have a pretty good idea of what's going on around here ;)
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 21, 2017 15:46:32 GMT
Certainly, but there comes a point when you have to see how it actually functions. Slow play and free play sans armor are really helpful as you're getting to know your art better, at least in my experience. I don't know of that's done in Kenjutsu but I'd recommend that before spending all the money on full HEMA kit.
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Post by loneronin on Aug 21, 2017 15:59:40 GMT
Thank you for the replies, i really appreciate that! I also think that sparring is important to fight with partners who don´t cooperate for technique training. Like you said, i hope to get a sense of distance, timing, dealing with feints/ feint by myself and to get a feeling how practicable large sword motions in a real sword fight would be. And i hope to imagine how important stamina was on a medieval battlefield. Testing the applicability of techniques is just another point in sparring, maybe to improve/ change some techniques or my own fighting style. But at first, we want to train classic kumitachi (partner training drills) with fair contact to improve our technique and to get a feeling for sparring intensity. To get correct and slicing cut´s we do tameshigiri (cutting test´s with live blades) Maybe i will start in a HEMA-Club someday. I will keep the polypropylene/synthetic bokken (Cold Steel; Purple Heart; Blackfencer) and the sword from regenyei in mind. Maybe a exhibition fight Katana would do the trick also, like the "Ikusa Katana" from John lee. I think the blade is blunt enough (2mm at least). Armor Suggestions: Gloves: "Heavy Gloves" from SPES Fencing Jacket: "Hussar" Fencing Jacket from SPES Helmet/ Mask: I dont know yet (something with nape and back head protection) Upper Legs: maybe padded pants or something like that: www.woodenswords.com/SPES_Thigh_Protection_Skirt_p/spes-thigh.htmAnd some Protectors for Knees; Elbows; forearms and so on. @ Lukas MG What do you think about the "Gladiatores" schools in Germany and do you know some german HEMA/ Swordfight forums? Greetings: LoneRonin
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Aug 21, 2017 21:07:18 GMT
I must admit I'm not a big fan of the way Gladiatores groups are often run... it is a franchising system and I have my issues with the way they largely close themselves up against cross-training and exchange because essentially anything that doesn't get the owner money is frowned upon. You will rarely find them inviting other instructors for workshops, nor will you see them often (or at all) on international or national events. In my experience, it's always a bad sign if cross-training is not encouraged. Furthermore, you will find that sparring generally doesn't play a big role in most Gladiatores groups, cooperative training with and also without masks is what's done quite a lot. There is some variation between groups though, depending on who runs the local group and the way they see sparring. Gladiatores Munich for example is actually known for its big(-ish) yearly tournament so they're no stranger to sparring, even if only a small part of them does in regularly (as far as I know). Last but not least, being a commercial school, they are much more expensive than a non-profit club (but def. not necessarily any better).
I suggest you let me know (via pm maybe) where you are located, I might be able to recommend a group in your area.
About German HEMA forums: there aren't any really active ones. The Ars Gladii forum used to see some traffic but it's practically dead.
As for your equipment, here are my suggestions for an (almost) full kit, which is not really necessary for most friendly sparring: - stay away from the Spes heavies, they are clumsy and have poor thumb protection. My recommendation is for the Polish Sparring Gloves. The Konings fall apart way to easily, the Neymans I've seen I wasn't too impressed with and the Pro-gauntlet... well, in 10 years maybe. - regular 1600N Allstar mask with Spes back of the head protector and mask overlay - regular Axel Pettersson Spes jacket, the Hussar model certainly does the trick but it is quite expensive - PBT throat protector - Spes ellbow guards - possibly forearm guards but if you get the Sparring Gloves they have a cuff that covers most of the forearms. Also a longer one of you want it that goes all the way up to the ellbos but I'm not a fan of that. - thighs: no protection necessary for most sparring. I only wear some padding there for hard hitting tournaments. - Knees and shins: several options, I could recommend some models but would have to look them up, let me know if you want that info.
Hope that helps.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 22, 2017 1:36:33 GMT
Mittens or five fingers? I'm still hoping to find a five finger tough enough for full speed but agile enough for arming sword manipulation.
Re groups in Germany, have you looked at the HEMA Alliance group finder? There have to be a bunch. I go over there every year for the Berlin buckler bouts and the place is full of locals from different groups.
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Aug 22, 2017 1:49:36 GMT
I've really not been impressed with the five fingers. I find them to be less dexterous than the mittens, and far less protective. Using the mittens you actually have quite a bit of finger mobility, because your hands and fingers have some room to manipulate inside the mitten itself. The five finger has rigid finger pieces, and because of the protective layer it, like every other 5 finger out there, keeps your fingers splayed apart.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Aug 22, 2017 4:17:57 GMT
Mittens or the hoof modell. I don't like the 5-finger version. The rigid covering extends to the inside of the fingers so your fingertips are encased in hard plastic. That makes manipulating the weapon much harder I've felt.
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Post by loneronin on Aug 22, 2017 15:52:40 GMT
Perhaps one day these wil be ready developed: progauntlet.nl/What do you think about shoulder protection? Or sparring in Chainmail with a gambeson?
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Aug 22, 2017 16:20:23 GMT
Shoulder protection is not necessary, and in fact I would caution against it. The goal of protective equipment is to prevent you from getting injured, but you still want to be able to feel getting hit. Completely over-armoring yourself so you can just tank everything without feeling it isn't very conducive to good training, or respecting the weapon. As for chainmail+gambeson, the question is: why? Chainmail is designed to prevent damage due to sharp things, not blunt impact. So you are just adding a bunch of cost for not much benefit. Something like the SPES AP jacket is designed for longsword feder sparring, and there are other companies which make what are essentially budget models of the same thing. If you want some more information, much of which has already been brought up; Combat Con published a gear guide this year, because people were asking so many questions about manufacturers: www.combatcon.com/2017-2/what-to-do/tournament-information/combatcon-tournament-gear-guide/A video on the subject of what you need for steel longsword sparring:
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 22, 2017 19:46:25 GMT
A good gambeson is fine. There's resistance to gambesons from the HEMA community because they look too LARPy. But the black stylish ones favored in the tourneys offer less hip protection and are often hotter to wear. Layered linen works. Just add hard point protection and be ready for people to snicker at you. They'll be broiling like hams while you're sitting pretty in a naturally wicking fabric. I just ordered one myself because I'm tired of the heat stroke.
Chain mail isn't really necessary. However, I very much agree with those who say steel protection is currently underrated. I use a steel That Guy's mask with custom padding inside because I don't believe fencing masks should EVER have been the model for full force HEMA. I've felt way too much of the blows wearing HEMA fencing masks. And had temporary hearing loss. I also have yet to see any HEMA gauntlet equal to a fitted pair of steel gauntlets with extra finger tip protection. But again it comes back to the big problem. For simulating blossfetchen you shouldn't be wearing armor. Yet for protection in full force we have to wear armor. It's an impasse. The best solution I've found is to not get locked into full kit. Use slow play and gearless free play for contrast and to keep yourself from getting locked into a gear mindset. Among other things if you train for the gear instead of the technique, you're going to lose a lot of hand and finger manipulations that are important in longsword and become critical in I.33 or messer.
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Post by wazikan on Aug 23, 2017 23:05:47 GMT
also keep in mind that just because you train in kenjutsu or battojutsu this doesn't translate to having armor on. with armor the attacks change. we used to put on armor doing kukishinden ryu (which is an armored system) and go at it. but with armor you move differently, and you have to offset your balance because of this. which changes everything. plus you do a lot more bashing bodies in armor, most kenjustu schools do not do that because its just not necessary.
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Aug 24, 2017 6:33:36 GMT
The purpose of this thread, unless I'm greatly mistake, is actually asking about modern HEMA protective equipment, rather than 'armor' per say. This is equipment that is meant to be as close to unarmored fighting as possible, given that it is still required to be sufficient to provide protection against steel longsword simulators.
Doing armored combat is a whole different ball game.
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