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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 5:31:46 GMT
I guess I played way too much RPGs lately, but I've been idly wondering about the various double bladed weapons shown in alot of the games. Specifically, I'm thinking about the viability of a say.. two bladed sword. Quick googling told me that it didn't exist historically in any abundance(or at all), but what I'm interested in is _why_? Practically, I can see that these weapons would be incredibly difficult to learn and from a combat point of view it seems that they trade the flexibility of a single handed weapon and the reach of a two handed weapon for... cool moves?
has anyone ever trained with a double bladed weapon before? Can you shed some light on how it handles?
EDIT: errr. to clarify, what I meant is something along the lines of a stick with two piece of sword stuck on either end
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 7:03:18 GMT
What games inspired you to start this thread? I mean titles I think that a double bladed weapon could be used like Bō or Jō staves in Bōjutsu/Jōjutsu (think Darth Maul here ). On the question "why" you answered yourself. It's just too impractical.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 8:08:11 GMT
Um.. virtually every bioware game has double weapons in there somewhere. and star wars..
Had there been martial styles based on it? I mean, flails, nunchakus and firewheels are all hard weapons to learn but people still used them. I just wanted to know how they fare in combat.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 14:55:57 GMT
I've never handled one, but I picture them as having blades as long as or shorter than the staff part of the weapon. The weapon would have a "hilt" that would produce a lot of leverage behind the blade, perhaps too much, increasing the odds of damaging the blade. Also, I think it would be almost as big a threat to the user as to the opponent. A thrust would involve having a blade pointed at the user. If that thrust is stopped it could conceivably be shoved back into the user. The user would be endangered by the blade nearest him. More trouble than it's worth. A plain old staff would be better.
On a side note, while watching Darth Maul at work, I couldn't help noticing that his double bladed lightsaber combined with his billowy clothing looked like an excellent way to set himself on fire.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 23:32:42 GMT
There are several problems with a double-bladed sword that would make it impractical: 1) the weight 2) the balance 3) the risk of cutting yourself with one of your own blades if double edged 4) lack of cutting power due to trying to avoid problem number 3
Lightsaber combat is entirely different from metal blade combat. First, the only weight in the lightsaber is in the hilt, and a lightsaber is expected to cut through anything like a knife through warm butter so cuts, slashes, thrusts, etc do not need to be as "pronounced" as that of a metal bladed weapon. Second, a lightsaber has no edges, sides, etc on the blade portion of it so it really does not matter where you attack with it.
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Jun 12, 2008 1:07:03 GMT
I think a double ended spear would be very practical and look really cool
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2008 1:32:54 GMT
Well I guess it depends on what you define as a double ended weapon, a spear with a butt cap for example is a double ended weapon, manrikigusari, kusarigama are all double ended weapons. The egyptians had double ended crescent staffs, there are weapons in chinese martial arts that are double ended and then some. None of these weapons were used on the battlefield, although I think one of the egyptian pharoahs carried one of those doubled ended crescent staffs into battle.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2008 3:41:58 GMT
hm.. i guess nothing beats efficiency in war eh? I get what you are saying and it makes sense.
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Jun 12, 2008 3:45:18 GMT
no blood I ment a double bladed spear
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2008 17:02:07 GMT
Seems like I read somewhere the ancient Greeks used double ended spears. Or maybe the second end was just a pointy buttcap that was improvised as a second spear tip. I don't quite remember.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2008 5:35:47 GMT
I believe the greek spears did have a spike on the butt end that could be used for stabbing downwards on opponents that had fallen over and were being trampled.
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Post by rammstein on Jun 25, 2008 16:14:17 GMT
Doubled ended weapons existed ffrequently in more sportlike fighting such as martial arts, dueling, etc. but they were for all intents and purposes completely absent from battlefields. The sarissa DID have a pointy buttcap that could be reversed if the main spear head was damaged, but I'd honestly consider this to be more of a sword and back-up dagger type of configuration than a two bladed weapon one.
For double blades swords, this idea sounds cool but it just doesn't work in reality for one specific reason - PoBs. A swords cutting efficiency is directly related to the point of balance. If the point of balance is a high number like 8 inches, then the sword will be a monsterous cutter (ignoring blade geometry and other variables). If it's close at about 2 inches, the sword's cutting ability will be lessed greatly. With a double bladed sword, the point of balance will be a NEGATIVE number, sitting squarly in the hilt. This means that the sword will cutt with the efficiency of a wiffle bat, flying off of objects because the blade has no mass behind it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2008 17:50:24 GMT
i have that double bladed ronin sword and i sharpened it up and really it seems very...stupid to use i mean try anything pretty much and you get a cut and as for the Greeks i think that the pointy butt cap was a great idea
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Post by Erick R. on Jun 25, 2008 21:29:00 GMT
I believe the greek spears did have a spike on the butt end that could be used for stabbing downwards on opponents that had fallen over and were being trampled. That's right, when an opposing phalanx formation was broken, sometime the butt-spike would be used to make sure enemies behind you weren't going to get up and attack from the rear by stabbing downwards as they stepped over the fallen. It was also believed that if a spear what broken in combat, then the remaining length would still have been used as a shorter spear until another could be acquired or they were forced to use their xiphos.
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Post by rammstein on Jun 25, 2008 22:01:20 GMT
Going off on a tanget here, I'm not sure many hoplites HAD a xiphos in their possession. Many if not most could barely afford a shield and spear and if they were lucky a helm.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2008 23:21:04 GMT
Actually I think you will find that as long as they were stabbing someone with it which end they were using would have been inconsequential especially when it broke down into melee. I think that the spear work in 300 is a good example of how the spear would have been used on the ancient battlefield. Yes I know 300 is based on a comic book but the way they used their spears looked very accurate to me.
I'm afraid I have to agree with rammstein on the argument of the xiphos. The spear was the primary weapon for most of the ancient cultures, the sword was not in mass production at that point in time. I think the first mass production of swords was the roman army and the gladius.
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Post by rammstein on Jun 26, 2008 0:23:34 GMT
Ditto on that. I despised every moment of 300 EXCEPT For their suprisingly accurate spear work, at least in it's prevelence of the battle field as well as it's thrusting.
First mass production of the sword that I'm aware of is the gladius, so I'm with BW on that too.
Good god, 3 agreements between us, we've got to make sure the world hasn't ended.
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Post by Erick R. on Jun 26, 2008 0:27:46 GMT
Very true, but you also have to understand that A Hoplite by definition meant something like armored man.... thus to be a hoplite in a phalanx serving a greek city state during the classical and Hellenic periods you would have been required to have at least a shield, breastplate and spear, ( which of coursewas the primary weapon )
The xiphos wouldn't have been standard issue, but any citizens that served as hoplites would have been able to afford most of the required items, otherwise they would have been used as skirmishers, peltasts.. etc. etc.
As far as the Xiphos being standard issue, I'm sure you're right although I never claimed it was.
Edit: Lakedemonian Spartiates and peers were all required to carry a xiphos into battle. But that's only one small city state and I still believe your right about the mass production topic.
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Jun 26, 2008 0:28:24 GMT
I really think that a double bladed spear would make an exellant weapon
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Post by Erick R. on Jun 26, 2008 0:32:26 GMT
@ Rammstein: lol Well, I'm not always abrasive. @ Swordboy: Didn't mean to hijack your thread.
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