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Post by Cosmoline on Jul 6, 2017 16:57:25 GMT
I've finally gotten around to doing some backyard cutting this year, and tried out the sharps on pool noodles. The Rodel Jian is fantastic and slices the stuff fine, but I was disappointed with the Albion Yeoman. I had not done proper test cutting with it before, and it tends to cut about half way through at best for anything but an oberhau from the right shoulder, at least with the thicker noodles. Even with the oberhau with a step the last half of the cut leaves rough marks on the section--like it's half tearing. The sword is sharp, but because of the design I'm hitting with the thin end of the tapered blade. I'm wondering if this is just the nature of the beast. What little we know of how these were used suggests they would cut into the center and then make slicing and thrusting cuts. And it sure is impressive on the thrust! The wound channel is epic.
But maybe there's a trick to getting it to hew better.
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Post by Verity on Jul 6, 2017 17:02:21 GMT
I've finally gotten around to doing some backyard cutting this year, and tried out the sharps on pool noodles. The Rodel Jian is fantastic and slices the stuff fine, but I was disappointed with the Albion Yeoman. I had not done proper test cutting with it before, and it tends to cut about half way through at best for anything but an oberhau from the right shoulder, at least with the thicker noodles. Even with the oberhau with a step the last half of the cut leaves rough marks on the section--like it's half tearing. The sword is sharp, but because of the design I'm hitting with the thin end of the tapered blade. I'm wondering if this is just the nature of the beast. What little we know of how these were used suggests they would cut into the center and then make slicing and thrusting cuts. And it sure is impressive on the thrust! The wound channel is epic. But maybe there's a trick to getting it to hew better. Are you sure of edge alignment? I know with the tapered blades they are much more finicky and demanding of edge alignment due to less mass at the center of percussion than say a X, XII, XIIa, XIII, XIIIa, etc. I find if I am paying a lot of attention to edge alignment the XVIa I have zips through. If I am off on edge alignment at all I get a partial tear vs a clean cut. They are more picky than even Katana on proper edge alignment... Just a thought...
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Post by 28shadow on Jul 6, 2017 17:03:19 GMT
Pool noodles aren't exactly the best targets to use, though I understand not having the funds/space/time to procure better things. It's definitely not the sharpness of the blade, as I have cut pool noodles with very dull blades and have seen people cut them with iaitos.
Do you have a picture of your set up or video of the cutting?
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Post by Verity on Jul 6, 2017 17:04:30 GMT
You also really want to focus on the cantilever as you really want the tip moving. Thankfully the pointier types make this easier...
Your rear hand should basically be doing all the swinging and your forward hand is only guiding the edge with a tiny bit of push. I find this works (mostly) for my amateur swinging
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Post by Cosmoline on Jul 6, 2017 17:06:17 GMT
No pictures but it's just a noodle stuck on a post with a stool under it. I left it unstable so any defect in the cut would tend to knock it over.
Edge alignment is a possibility, though I'm 90% sure the underhau cuts are aligned fine. They cut about an inch in and stop, then knock the stand over. Bad alignment is a possibility from the left shoulder cuts, for sure. Those are just bouncing off entirely.
This is a one hander. I can *cheat* and get fine cuts using it like a very short longsword, but that's not what I'm testing here ;-)
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Post by 28shadow on Jul 6, 2017 17:09:02 GMT
No pictures but it's just a noodle stuck on a post with a stool under it. I left it unstable so any defect in the cut would tend to knock it over. Edge alignment is a possibility, though I'm 90% sure the underhau cuts are aligned fine. They cut about an inch in and stop, then knock the stand over. Unterhaus and other rising cuts are typically hard on any target, as there is no real object for you to force the target into. Oberhaus are easiest because your forcing the blade into the target, and also the target is being pushed downwards into the ground. Along with gravity, this makes the cut both easier, more effective, and natural. It's normal for unterhaus and mittlehaus to suck, especially at the beginning. They're the hardest cuts.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jul 6, 2017 18:26:31 GMT
I wonder if it's because my cut from below is on a straight line, lifting up. The blade is literally smacking straight into the target without any movement to allow a cut to occur.
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Post by 28shadow on Jul 6, 2017 18:29:12 GMT
Here's a link to a video that has some good information about these types of cuts.
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Post by Croccifixio on Jul 6, 2017 23:57:51 GMT
Hm when I had a type XIV (Windlass) it sailed through most targets and could even do bamboo. The profile taper makes it stiffer than blades with a similar amount of mass (say a type XII) so that helps quite a bit when cutting. Perhaps the edge has dulled a bit and it doesn't bite well enough, requiring a lot of concentration on edge alignment? Or maybe don't try so hard to make "correct" cuts first, just get a feel of the edge and maybe do some draw cuts.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 7, 2017 2:30:22 GMT
My Windlass XIV astonished me from my first cut and continues to do so. It cuts like a champ and that point does its thing effortlessly. Windlass messed up when they decided to discontinue the sword.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Jul 7, 2017 11:54:14 GMT
I have never cut with one of the Albion XIV but I would expect them to be good cutters. They are wide, stiff and fairly thin. Is the sword properly sharp? Not all Albions come like that... the blade should be slicing paper very easily. I would also suggest using something other than pool noodles. These things are very light, bouncy and at the same time quite dense. To cut them successfully, you need a lot of tip speed and ideally a light blade. Not really representative of anything a sword would encounter in combat. I suggest having a go at some bottles or better of course, tatami mats.
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Post by Verity on Jul 7, 2017 14:48:39 GMT
I have never cut with one of the Albion XIV but I would expect them to be good cutters. They are wide, stiff and fairly thin. Is the sword properly sharp? Not all Albions come like that... the blade should be slicing paper very easily. I would also suggest using something other than pool noodles. These things are very light, bouncy and at the same time quite dense. To cut them successfully, you need a lot of tip speed and ideally a light blade. Not really representative of anything a sword would encounter in combat. I suggest having a go at some bottles or better of course, tatami mats. ^ this. Tip speed is critical. And I agree I am not a fan of the cutting medium in general. I use bottles, tatami or the poor man version (tightly wrapped bundle of newspaper soaked overnight in water)
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Post by Cosmoline on Jul 7, 2017 16:38:29 GMT
It's plenty sharp, but I think this insight hit the nail on the head:
And that's likely why the oberhau is slicing fine,but the unterhau isn't. The tip speed isn't being accelerated by the unterhau because I'm just lifting arm and blade together, while in the oberhau the blade tip is hitting the target in a tight rotation. I'm going to experiment with this. Thanks!
This really highlights the importance of cutting tests I think. I've been overestimating the potential effect of my strikes from the low left because my opponents certainly feel a big impact. But it's the impact of my arm lifting the steel into them. And that kind of strike just hits--it doesn't really cut anything. I'm going to work at improving rotation from the left in general, since this is also a problem from the high left.
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Post by Verity on Jul 7, 2017 18:49:48 GMT
It's plenty sharp, but I think this insight hit the nail on the head: And that's likely why the oberhau is slicing fine,but the unterhau isn't. The tip speed isn't being accelerated by the unterhau because I'm just lifting arm and blade together, while in the oberhau the blade tip is hitting the target in a tight rotation. I'm going to experiment with this. Thanks! This really highlights the importance of cutting tests I think. I've been overestimating the potential effect of my strikes from the low left because my opponents certainly feel a big impact. But it's the impact of my arm lifting the steel into them. And that kind of strike just hits--it doesn't really cut anything. I'm going to work at improving rotation from the left in general, since this is also a problem from the high left. Yep. As with any sword. It's not about arm strength and powering through like a baseball bat. It's all about the cantilever action of getting the tip moving. Push/pull with a two handed longsword and focusing on rotation vs force will yield a much more devastating cut based on the physics of the human body and the anatomy of a sword. I found that initial training in cane and stick fighting really made my cuts better before I got into longsword. Cane and stick fighting REALLY trains you to get rotational speed and it's about wrist and push/pull to get tip speed up.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Jul 8, 2017 0:39:50 GMT
Would it be better to do the push/pull flick right before the target is hit, or gradually as you move towards the target?
Just curious if the physics is similar to what I learned in karate, where the boost in momentum is best done right before contact
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Post by Verity on Jul 8, 2017 1:01:12 GMT
Unlike a katana and JSA where the grip is tightened causing the wrist snap just prior to contact, my studies show that the push pull usually initiates earlier in longsword due to the style (in my case German longsword).. the sword leads the body. This also dovetails with the techniques for German longsword, this especially comes out in meisterhau techniques (zwerchau or schielhau being at the forefront of my mind as I write this).
There is so much weaving and rotation happening if you think of the techniques put together vs isolated cuts.
Oberhau to parry, into a partial bind into a nachreissen or zwerchau... that kind of stuff just naturally causes the push pull due to the way the style works, if that makes sense.
JSA and German longsword have very different mechanics despite both using a long sharpened piece of steel. That last-minute "snap" of a katana doesn't (in my experience) work as well with a longsword vs a proper and fluid push/pull-let-the-sword-lead type of thing happening in (German) longsword
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 8, 2017 13:16:01 GMT
The technique that I use on my XIV is much like I use on my machetes and other one handed swords/knives. It’s a modified technique that I learned from kendo. That it is most power comes from the little finger and progressively lessens going to the index finger. Basically in addition to powering from the shoulder I get additional rotation from the wrist. Not only that, the pommel end of the grip starts extended from the heel of my palm and closes using the fingers, mostly the little finger, giving yet another pivot point for rotation, which increases the tip speed more. It also helps if you deliver the above with a slicing action, either forward or rearward and not to just bat the target. All of this increases the tip’s velocity. Don’t forget the rest of the body in the process as well as edge alignment and sharpness.
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Post by Verity on Jul 8, 2017 17:25:41 GMT
Lol. I definitely am beginning to respect the treatises and modern technique manuals more than I already did. Properly describing stuff in words is challenging!
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 8, 2017 17:48:28 GMT
Isn't that the way to use a viking sword with handshake grip and the pommel in the palm?
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Post by Verity on Jul 8, 2017 17:57:33 GMT
Isn't that the way to use a viking sword with handshake grip and the pommel in the palm? Yep
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