|
Post by Cosmoline on Jun 26, 2017 19:25:58 GMT
I did a lot of hiking around here (Alaska) a decade back, then got urbanized. Somewhere in the process I stopped carrying firearms for bear, and reverted to spray and a stick. But a recent spate of serious attacks and a spike in bear sightings, plus a move out closer to the woods has made me revisit the issue.
It's something I've wrestled with for a long time. The problem is not a minor one. You need something powerful enough to stop a brown bear that you can deploy and fire with accuracy under the most extreme stress, while moving or even being moved. I know victims of bear maulings personally and have read many other accounts. The common thread is that you will usually have only a few seconds to react to a direct charge, if even that. You have more time to deal with defending property or dealing with a bear that just won't leave the area. All of these scenarios are within the ambit of DLP (defense of life or property). So all have to be addressed. Though the charge is of course paramount.
You can figure with a bear that is after your dogs, livestock or just won't leave, you will have time to deliver a variety of responses from spray to noise and of course removing any attractant like garbage. The charging one, though, gives you only the one choice *at best*. If you choose spray, it's unlikely you'll have time for other options. If you choose a non-lethal shotgun round, figure on that being your response. And you need to be able to physically deploy VERY quickly.
At the same time, it only works if you have it. So whatever you have must be totable in the woods and not a PINA you will leave home
With these factors, I opted to go with the Mossberg 500A 12 gauge in factory specs with a full tube of Brenneke rifled slugs and a bead sighted barrel. I am carrying it on the right shoulder with barrel up and covered with some anti-rain tape. My deployment is to pull the stock up with the right hand, spinning the front behind me and up, which from tests I can do as quickly as a large revolver presentation.
I'm opting to include no add-ons like shell carriers or lights at this point. And based on my experiences with the iron sights on a slug barrel I am opting for the bead. The idea is to minimize weight, and frankly if it doesn't go down after a magazine full of slugs it won't go down.
I choose the Mossberg in particular because it's a proven platform known to me and the safety is large and both tactile and visible. This is of particular importance when carrying it with a round in the chamber.
Basically, after trying out probably two dozen different weapon combinations for bear, I've come back to keeping it very simple with a focus on speed, power and toteability.
|
|
Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,625
|
Post by Zen_Hydra on Jun 26, 2017 21:20:24 GMT
Sounds legit to me, and it would be pretty much my choice in a similar circumstance.
|
|
|
Post by 1776 on Jul 10, 2017 19:14:54 GMT
Sounds legit to me, and it would be pretty much my choice in a similar circumstance. ^What he said. Though I would grab a Glock in 10mm too.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 7:20:48 GMT
Don't short stroke that pump or your history.
|
|
harrybeck
Member
Enter your message here...
Posts: 999
|
Post by harrybeck on Jul 16, 2017 18:11:19 GMT
I would go with a marlin in 45-70.
|
|
harrybeck
Member
Enter your message here...
Posts: 999
|
Post by harrybeck on Jul 16, 2017 18:13:37 GMT
In the Appalachian Mts I used a S&W 10mm DAO auto. Big difference in bears though
|
|
|
Post by howler on Jul 17, 2017 20:11:52 GMT
Don't short stroke that pump or your history. Short shucking with a charging Grizzly is a real variable. I got a Mossy in both semi and pump, with each having attributes.
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Jul 17, 2017 21:39:13 GMT
I've never short stroked one before. But realistically if I'm being charged in earnest I'm unlikely to get more than one round off. If I'm not, I'll have time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2017 3:03:29 GMT
Pump will have round chambered? Good.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Jul 18, 2017 3:34:49 GMT
A good pair of tennis shoe (to run the hell away), but if the bear is relatively close, your screwed because those things can haul ass. You want to be far away if possible. Brown bears have insane power and speed, so a high powered rifle at distance is ideal position in taking one down.
|
|
|
Post by stopped1 on Jul 18, 2017 3:48:20 GMT
Maybe a large handgun and a can be pepper spray? If I live way up north, I will possibly consider 45 Super, no not 45ACP, I got 1350 ft/s with a 185 FMJ (wouldn't go hollowpoint on bears) and will possibly get another 100fps with a 6 inch. Pretty cheap and easy conversation actually.
10mm or 41 mag would also do pretty well although I favor the 41 for the ability to use heavy hard cast bullets.
454/480/500 well few people can handle them properly.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2017 6:57:21 GMT
Your hiking like Cosmo. You've hiked 5 miles already for the day. Its just a day hike so no pack, just water, snack, compass, knife and a firearm. But your tired from hiking the terrain. You start to walk along a stream bed and this happens: It's running at you! It wants to eat you alive! You got 2 seconds max. What firearm do you pull?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2017 7:45:52 GMT
Haha! The flintlock gives you one round for the bear and one round for yourself (or your friends leg)! If I could fire it accurately under stress, I would choose that Ruger pistol in .454 (got rugers in .22, .38 and .357). In my experience, Colt and S&W pistols can lockup on you if exposed to too much of the elements.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 4:44:37 GMT
When I was on a hike when younger, I was confronted with a black bear within fifty feet. I never heard it. Only had a Ruger single action .22 (Clint Eastwood "spaghetti" Western phase). The bear came out of the brush and just stared at me (black bears are known to eat people alive). I pulled my pistol and cocked the hammer. I never felt more helpless. The bear decided my fate and walked away. After that, if I went deep into the woods, I generally carried a Ruger .357. ( largest wild predators in our area are cougars and black bears). If I went into grizzly/brown bear country for hiking and not hunting, I would at least carry a 12 gauge shotgun with folding stock and slugs. Mossberg s and Remington's are nice, but my personal preference, is the very reliable, semi-auto, Vepr 12, with folding stock and 8 - 12 round magazines, locked and loaded. It's based off of the very reliable AK system and is the best shotgun I have ever owned for self-defense.
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Jul 20, 2017 17:54:51 GMT
A good pair of tennis shoe (to run the hell away), but if the bear is relatively close, your screwed because those things can haul ass. You want to be far away if possible. Brown bears have insane power and speed, so a high powered rifle at distance is ideal position in taking one down. Sure, for hunting. But for DLP you can't just start shooting bears at a distance. And as a practical matter in south-central and southeast in the low altitude trail systems things are so overgrown you're unlikely to see any bear until it's within 25 yards or less. They run around in the underbrush. I've carried all sorts of other things. I had one of the first production SRH .454's but it's a tank to carry and slow to bring on target. Also the recoil slows down any follow up shots. I had a short barrel SRH .44 Alaskan but it's still a brick to carry and a brick in the hand. Very sluggish response. I'm faster with the Speed Six but it's just a .357 and I know too many verified accounts of even black bear shrugging off those hits. The 12 gauge AK's are pretty cool. I've owned a half dozen AK knockoffs but haven't tried the shotgun ones. I'm not sure how they'd do with the high powered hardcast slugs we use for bear here. But reports seem positive. The problem is the price! The Mossberg 500 ran me $250. The 12 ga. AK's are many times that. If I opted for a flinter I'd make it a trade gun. Light weight, made for packing in the woods and it will give you one good shot which may be all you need anyway. If you have the right setup flinters can be exceptionally reliable. I had a trade gun that literally never once failed to fire. Whereas my caplocks almost always have a few failures. Get a hardened frizzen with a white lightening flash hole. Use good powder and a waxed knee to keep it all dry. The other element I discovered was critical to reliability was a quality build. Knowing how to fit lock stock and barrel together makes a lot of difference when the water is trying to find a way to your pan. Not to mention when you need the flames to reach the chamber!
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Jul 20, 2017 21:59:25 GMT
A bear size sidearm tends to be pretty bulky to begin with, so combined with a bear size long arm it gets pretty irritating. A can of bear spray is a lot easier to tote as a backup--or in other situations as a primary (ie snoobling around the camp but not actively threatening you)
|
|
|
Post by howler on Jul 20, 2017 22:54:26 GMT
A good pair of tennis shoe (to run the hell away), but if the bear is relatively close, your screwed because those things can haul ass. You want to be far away if possible. Brown bears have insane power and speed, so a high powered rifle at distance is ideal position in taking one down. Sure, for hunting. But for DLP you can't just start shooting bears at a distance. And as a practical matter in south-central and southeast in the low altitude trail systems things are so overgrown you're unlikely to see any bear until it's within 25 yards or less. They run around in the underbrush. I've carried all sorts of other things. I had one of the first production SRH .454's but it's a tank to carry and slow to bring on target. Also the recoil slows down any follow up shots. I had a short barrel SRH .44 Alaskan but it's still a brick to carry and a brick in the hand. Very sluggish response. I'm faster with the Speed Six but it's just a .357 and I know too many verified accounts of even black bear shrugging off those hits. The 12 gauge AK's are pretty cool. I've owned a half dozen AK knockoffs but haven't tried the shotgun ones. I'm not sure how they'd do with the high powered hardcast slugs we use for bear here. But reports seem positive. The problem is the price! The Mossberg 500 ran me $250. The 12 ga. AK's are many times that. If I opted for a flinter I'd make it a trade gun. Light weight, made for packing in the woods and it will give you one good shot which may be all you need anyway. If you have the right setup flinters can be exceptionally reliable. I had a trade gun that literally never once failed to fire. Whereas my caplocks almost always have a few failures. Get a hardened frizzen with a white lightening flash hole. Use good powder and a waxed knee to keep it all dry. The other element I discovered was critical to reliability was a quality build. Knowing how to fit lock stock and barrel together makes a lot of difference when the water is trying to find a way to your pan. Not to mention when you need the flames to reach the chamber! No argument here, and a .44 would be the minimum (for handguns) if your in Alaska. I got a Mossy 500 field/security (short and long barrel included) in BOTH semi and pump.
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Jul 24, 2017 17:37:19 GMT
I finally got a chance to do a full range of test rounds out of it this weekend. My shoulder is brutalized ;-) All the slugs tested at 25 yards with the bead gave acceptable accuracy. Groups were cloverleafs in different spots, all in the six inch ring. The Foster style slugs grouped best with dead center when the bead is held at six o'clock. Brenneke high octane black slugs grouped well but were a disappointing high right by about 2 1/2 inches. Of course with rifle sights you make a little screwdriver adjustment or drift them a bit and you're fine. The bead makes things a bit more tricky. I keep thinking of ways to improve the accuracy. But I have to remind myself "the best is the enemy of good enough" ;-) Keeping it simple means no red dot to worry about, no crud to get snagged on anything. And the bead has an advantage for speed. If I do opt for rifle sights, I'll install a set rather than going with the factory slugster barrel set. For some reason Mossberg uses a crappy little rear sight on their slug barrels that always wants to flip down. I suppose this is doable for 25 yards standing. The hardcasts are the high right group, fosters in the bullseye. Some low-recoils are high left. But I'm not going to use those anyway.
|
|
|
Post by legacyofthesword on Jul 24, 2017 21:45:02 GMT
Cosmoline... I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure using your face as a backstop is a bad idea....
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Jul 24, 2017 22:35:18 GMT
That's why my head hurts!
|
|