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Post by Lancelot Chan on May 22, 2017 9:33:17 GMT
Sparring against a 56" long sword with my 46" No Remorse. It's quite a challenge!
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Post by Cosmoline on May 22, 2017 16:07:55 GMT
It's really difficult to get any kind of control over a wobbly plastic blade. So you tend to end up with a tag match when using those things.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on May 22, 2017 16:54:47 GMT
It's really difficult to get any kind of control over a wobbly plastic blade. So you tend to end up with a tag match when using those things. I think it's just a style difference. Tag match? Those hits would have been sever a limb. The sword I used was 4lbs 5oz and the one he used was 4 lbs 12 oz. Each hit that marked red, would be a disabling hit. We used steel swords to check our techniques to confirm the result would be the same too, or we discard that technique. Our blades slide, bind and wind, if we prefer to. However, I don't prefer to do that. Even when using a steel blade I don't prefer to do that either. If you want to see "more controlled" works, check this customer's video. Plenty point, bind and slide there. The bagua dao in the video is slightly lighter than SC's 56" sword. I would approach the fight differently though, using Fak Ging instead of this kind of bind and wind. So as I said, it's a stylistic difference.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on May 22, 2017 17:07:32 GMT
I did a video a while back to show what the cut we do in sparring would be like with sharp sword. Same weight, size and balance between the RSW and the sharp one. So you can see even the speed is the same. It was a newspaper roll, free standing, that I was cutting in the overlaying video.
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Post by Cosmoline on May 22, 2017 18:45:45 GMT
I'm not arguing that a cut from a steel maiodao, montante or longsword wouldn't take a limb off. I'm saying there are limits to the use of flexible plastic blades in sparring. For one thing it's extremely difficult to control lines with one, because they flex in ways steel simply doesn't. So the tendency is to focus on cuts and you get a lot of doubles because neither side can control the line. You can exchange blows but once they meet they don't behave like steel. Steel is always going to get you closer to the real thing.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on May 22, 2017 18:59:55 GMT
I'm not arguing that a cut from a steel maiodao, montante or longsword wouldn't take a limb off. I'm saying there are limits to the use of flexible plastic blades in sparring. For one thing it's extremely difficult to control lines with one, because they flex in ways steel simply doesn't. So the tendency is to focus on cuts and you get a lot of doubles because neither side can control the line. You can exchange blows but once they meet they don't behave like steel. Steel is always going to get you closer to the real thing. Again, as I said, stylistic difference. Back in the days when I use german longsword style, I emphasize a lot on "controlling the lines", bind and wind. I just moved away from that. I even did first blood duel with sharp sword when I was challenged that RSW don't simulate real things. You definitely can see how I occupied the line in the first round where I left a scar on his waist. The emphasis on german longsword was simultaneous forte defense and tip offense, occupying lines. I just don't do that nowadays. I use tip to both offense and defense, using Chinese style powering. The philosophy behind is different. I actually did a lot less double kill nowadays than before. You can see in that bout with Wraith, despite his sword being a single hander, I got hit more often. I was fighting something 10" longer than mine in today's bout, and that guy is the teacher grade in the style he study, Shaolin Black Tiger. He would have eaten me like breakfast if I were sparring like what I used to when when I was doing the german style.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on May 22, 2017 19:18:50 GMT
The main difference, if you are willing to look for, is that with the German style, my blade was not able to kick away my opponent's blade, even if it's just a basket hilt sword. They stuck together, bind and wind, or I get displaced. So I have to occupy the line. I have no other choice. Maybe this is what you preferred. With my current style, I avoid any long-lasting contact by kicking the opponent's blade off, by tip or by forte, so the opponent just give way. This happened in the first round, where I use my sword tip to knocked his forte away, canceling his strike. We're talking about using a lighter sword's tip to knock a heavier sword's forte away.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on May 22, 2017 19:35:43 GMT
I know people like to see this kind of "occupying lines" more. I know oriental style ain't well understood and Fa Ging is not popular. Partly because it's hard to do, partly because it's dangerous on steel. Thus not many is used to see that done. Well.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on May 22, 2017 19:44:20 GMT
So my point is, it's not the simulator's reaction in contact that caused the phenomena you brought up. It was my change in style. You can't bind and wind with multiple opponents, just like you can't do blade-sticking, hand-sticking, with multiple opponents. My current style have a much better chance against more than 1 opponent or a longer weapon than mine, due to being able to knock away opponent's weapon with tip. My safe zone is much larger. ;)
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Post by howler on May 22, 2017 20:02:51 GMT
It's really difficult to get any kind of control over a wobbly plastic blade. So you tend to end up with a tag match when using those things. I think it's just a style difference. Tag match? Those hits would have been sever a limb. The sword I used was 4lbs 5oz and the one he used was 4 lbs 12 oz. Each hit that marked red, would be a disabling hit. We used steel swords to check our techniques to confirm the result would be the same too, or we discard that technique. Our blades slide, bind and wind, if we prefer to. However, I don't prefer to do that. Even when using a steel blade I don't prefer to do that either. If you want to see "more controlled" works, check this customer's video. Plenty point, bind and slide there. The bagua dao in the video is slightly lighter than SC's 56" sword. I would approach the fight differently though, using Fak Ging instead of this kind of bind and wind. So as I said, it's a stylistic difference. A large shield with a sword and proper hand guard would be tough to deal with, even with a pole arm.
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Post by Cosmoline on May 22, 2017 22:59:31 GMT
It isn't simply an issue for winding-based swordplay. The difference between steel and plastic or boffers appears anytime you have contact. So a strike down to displace the other blade can be made much more effective with steel on steel. In your clip for example the displacement is more of a bounce, and I noticed several points where you ought to have been able to displace the longer blade more effectively if you'd had steel. Not only in a zorn-ort, but in any move where you need to use your blade's force to redirect the opponent's.
When you use bouncier and more flexible sword substitutes, it's more difficult to make any move where you encounter the opponent's blade. I'm not against using non-steel training tools, but they just don't do a good job simulating steel-on-steel contact.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on May 23, 2017 5:40:07 GMT
It isn't simply an issue for winding-based swordplay. The difference between steel and plastic or boffers appears anytime you have contact. So a strike down to displace the other blade can be made much more effective with steel on steel. In your clip for example the displacement is more of a bounce, and I noticed several points where you ought to have been able to displace the longer blade more effectively if you'd had steel. Not only in a zorn-ort, but in any move where you need to use your blade's force to redirect the opponent's. When you use bouncier and more flexible sword substitutes, it's more difficult to make any move where you encounter the opponent's blade. I'm not against using non-steel training tools, but they just don't do a good job simulating steel-on-steel contact. We actually did extensive tests on this particular subject, since we now emphasize on Fa Ging to bounce off opponent's swords. We used sharp swords to test and then applying the same technique on RSW to check the difference very carefully, with numerous repetition. The impacts were more severe on the sharp swords that the guy receiving the impact hurt way more in the grip, than the guy holding RSW. However, the degree of being launched away, is totally comparable. So other than getting hurt in the grip, and the attacker getting happier result, they don't differ much in the end. PLUS, here's the result of such a test. A hanwei katana donated to us from former toyama ryu student, ended up trashed.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on May 23, 2017 5:41:37 GMT
I think it's just a style difference. Tag match? Those hits would have been sever a limb. The sword I used was 4lbs 5oz and the one he used was 4 lbs 12 oz. Each hit that marked red, would be a disabling hit. We used steel swords to check our techniques to confirm the result would be the same too, or we discard that technique. Our blades slide, bind and wind, if we prefer to. However, I don't prefer to do that. Even when using a steel blade I don't prefer to do that either. If you want to see "more controlled" works, check this customer's video. Plenty point, bind and slide there. The bagua dao in the video is slightly lighter than SC's 56" sword. I would approach the fight differently though, using Fak Ging instead of this kind of bind and wind. So as I said, it's a stylistic difference. A large shield with a sword and proper hand guard would be tough to deal with, even with a pole arm. Yes. I enjoy their sparring a lot. It's rare to see people sparring with simulators who have high edge awareness. They're doing that! Slice and dice, not just hit the crap.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on May 23, 2017 13:43:59 GMT
There were people who think that using RSW to spar cannot do the same line control as the steel sword, since any impact feels different. I did a test side by side, with RSW katana and RSW longsword, as well as a hanwei katana and a windlass 15th century longsword.
I used the katana tip to hit the other sword, with single hand, since my other hand was holding the cam.
On the side to edge impact, it shows that it was exactly behaving the same. On the edge to edge impact, I screwed up the steel part since the windlass 15th century longsword has side rings. The katana's strikes get distracted by the side rings. Still one can see that the result is pretty close despite of that.
Thus using RSW to practice swordsmanship not only allow ones to Fa Ging in the strike but can simulate very well how a steel sword would do in safety.
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Post by Cosmoline on May 23, 2017 16:38:25 GMT
That's just a small shove to the strong of the blade with a stiff arm. I'm talking about the impact of a zorn-ort or krumphau. I really don't understand why you're so dedicated to using the boffers. I think they're fine tools for some things, but they aren't steel and they don't behave like steel.
That has not been my experience. You ought to be able to knock the opponent's blade out of position with a two-handed weapon and proper body alignment. The displacement is very dramatic. To go back to the original post, the reason I pointed that out is because if you were using steel and using it properly, the shorter two handed blade could displace the longer one with a krump or equivalent and create enough of an opening to attack safely. As it is the impacts just bounced both blades, which is what happens with boffers.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on May 23, 2017 16:54:55 GMT
That's just a small shove to the strong of the blade with a stiff arm. I'm talking about the impact of a zorn-ort or krumphau. I really don't understand why you're so dedicated to using the boffers. I think they're fine tools for some things, but they aren't steel and they don't behave like steel. That has not been my experience. You ought to be able to knock the opponent's blade out of position with a two-handed weapon and proper body alignment. The displacement is very dramatic. To go back to the original post, the reason I pointed that out is because if you were using steel and using it properly, the shorter two handed blade could displace the longer one with a krump or equivalent and create enough of an opening to attack safely. As it is the impacts just bounced both blades, which is what happens with boffers. Well, I can do the test further more if someone else is holding the cam for me so I can swing 2 handed. Mine ain't boffers. I build them at actual weight, size and balance, with very similar weight distribution and stiffness. I'm not very insisted as you've already seen that when challenged about the realism, I was willing to fight with sharp sword till blood spilled out. I edited out those wound tending footage from the duel video for more friendly viewing. But I can still show pics. I also do steel sparring at controlled speed. They're just different from what I do when going full contact with RSW. No. They're not boffers.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on May 23, 2017 17:04:19 GMT
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Post by Cosmoline on May 23, 2017 17:09:57 GMT
So how are you constructing them? Forgive my skepticism, but I've wasted a good deal of money on plastic simulators that were supposedly going to perform well and eventually gave up. If you've truly found a way of constructing a sparring-safe synthetic that performs as well as steel I am very impressed.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on May 23, 2017 17:22:01 GMT
So how are you constructing them? Forgive my skepticism, but I've wasted a good deal of money on plastic simulators that were supposedly going to perform well and eventually gave up. If you've truly found a way of constructing a sparring-safe synthetic that performs as well as steel I am very impressed. Err.... I'm afraid that's our trade secret. People in Taiwan, local in Hong Kong, and those in China all have tried to copycat me. I can tell you though, the construction is quite complex, usually taking 4 to 8 hours for 1 sword, and involved materials ranging from synthetic fabrics to steel. You may keep your skepticism and steel sparring. Your opinion actually holds true to most "boffers" out there. I agree with you on them. Mine just ain't the same. I was the original starting in 2004 before those copycats from Taiwan, China and Singapore spawn out. We have customers who went for those cheaper alternatives or the copycat, only to return to us because of what you mentioned. Their hands hurt from the impact rebound from those cheaper wannabe. Takara Takanashi, a koryu swordsmanship teacher in Japan, who teaches 3 styles of koryu and who sparred with me, was once invited to Taiwan to hold a seminar by my "competitor" who used to be my distributor and student. Takara told him that RSW simulated real sword techniques better than his stuff. Being a full time sword person, I take realism quite seriously. I sharpen swords to high polish (3 micron) and test cut, other than sparring. I also design sharp swords to be made by various smiths. My personal ones were by John Lundemo and Longship Armoury. So I verify the realism of our simulators from many different perspectives. Living by swords (making sparring swords, selling sparring swords, sharpening for students, teaching swordsmanship) ain't easy nowadays, especially in Hong Kong where real estate cost is the highest in the world. I wouldn't be able to do this without help from loyal friends and my passed away mom. I don't expect I can keep doing it indefinitely. Thus, I take this career extremely seriously, with a special pride you may say. I'm not quite normal I understand. I guess by now you can see why I was willing to fight a challenger on our realism with sharp sword then.
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Post by Cosmoline on May 23, 2017 18:56:50 GMT
Fair enough! I guess I'm going to have to buy a pair and give them a try. I'm nothing if not a glutton for punishment.
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