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Post by irondog on May 4, 2017 4:13:08 GMT
So it has been a while, work, training, life. Etc. Anyhow, I have had a good deal of fun recently with some duel wielding training. I do have a bit of training in paired weapons this was something of an "academic" curiosity to me. This started out because I was curious to see if I could wield a pair of Estwing 26 inch axes. As it turned out I can, though with some loss of precision. So next I took the 1852/79 saber(s) (cold steel and the original) out same thing. I could see it being a practical style. Definitely a very aggressive style that, movement and evasion are even more critical thank usual, however, the amount of angles and space you can cover is of interest to me. Also the havoc one could cause with two "heavy" weapons seems really "interesting". I have also done some work with bayoneted rifle and saber which is also very interesting and is using a spear and a parrying dagger. I will say that all the above are rather tiring but I see some merit to them. Also you really have to be "in control" when doing this because things do have a chance to go badly. Spear and dagger (seems rather balanced style very good for controlling a line and very easy to defend from because you opponent to get past the spear has to come into the threat zone of the dagger) Paired cavalry sabers and Paired Axes (very much rely on strength, speed and aggression also rather tiring. Upside is having two weapons that should be able to overwhelm an opponent and the ability to cover a lot of area and angles) Bayoneted rifle and Saber (a very interesting style to me because the bayoneted rifle played a bigger "offensive" role than I initially thought due to the angles it can attack from. Also it seems to me to be the rifle while decent in defence the way it is held does leave the hand open. So anyway just some observations and such on my part. If anyone has other observations/experiences/ideas, etc. that would be welcome and really cool. Thanks as always hope my ideas help.
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Post by Cosmoline on May 4, 2017 5:28:37 GMT
I can see it working with complimentary weapons. Sword and shield is a paired weapon set, as is sword and buckler or spear and shield. Or rapier and dagger for that matter. Each weapon has its own function. But with two swords or other long weapons you tend to get in your own way, or leave your center exposed.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 4, 2017 6:48:11 GMT
This started out because I was curious to see if I could wield a pair of Estwing 26 inch axes. The E45A? At 1.4kg and short for the weight compared to swords, it wouldn't be my first choice as a twin weapon. Definitely a very aggressive style that, movement and evasion are even more critical thank usual Compared to what? I.e., what is your "usual"? With twin one-handed weapons, you have better protection and more versatile offence than you would have wielding just one of those weapons. So twin sabre needs less movement and evasion than single sabre, 2 Estwings less than single Estwing, etc. Twin weapons is nice, but there are trade-offs. Compared to weapon-and-shield, you lose protection, especially against arrows (so unless you're well-armoured, weapon-and-shield is usually better on the battlefield). Compared to two-handed weapon, you lack leverage, and often lack reach. Compared with single one-handed weapon, you're better off, because you have a second weapon you can use to attack, trap, block, parry, etc. You disadvantages compared to single one-handed weapon are that you don't have a free hand in grappling (but it's usually easy to just drop your off-hand weapon, and then you have a free hand), your weapons are heavier to carry, and one weapon can restrict the movement of the other. This last one can be mitigated by choosing a shorter weapon, but then you give up reach. Where you have a great disadvantage in reach anyway (e.g., against spear), you don't lose anything significant by having weapons short enough to not get in each other's way, so this is a good anti-polearm option. One of the hardest hits I ever took in armoured fighting was from an off-hand parrying weapon - a simulator for a saintie: (but then other people say similar things about being hit by bucklers and other shields).
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Post by irondog on May 4, 2017 13:12:11 GMT
Compared to what? I.e., what is your "usual"? Most of my paired weapon training comes from paired sticks and also blades about machete size. Comparatively to those I find with the axes especially one is more "committed" to each swing. Also it is much easier to bring a shorter blade "back" to parry if needed. Of the styles mentioned Spear and dagger seemed most effective for me. Also bayoneted rifle and saber was fun too. Ok admittedly all of it was fun. That is a really awesome looking "saintie" spear, Can not say I have seen one of those, it looks like it would be a great parrying weapon with the added hand protection.
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Post by irondog on May 4, 2017 13:15:18 GMT
The E45A? At 1.4kg and short for the weight compared to swords, it wouldn't be my first choice as a twin weapon. Granted, the idea basically started out as a curiosity. The thought process was basically, hmm "I'm pretty strong I bet I could do that." It went on from there. Even with that using both of those as a pair is a challenge for balance and coordination. Sidenote: Those axes are really awesome!
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Post by Cosmoline on May 4, 2017 16:18:00 GMT
How are you able to manipulate both a saber and a bayoneted rifle? Military rifles and rifle-muskets from the age of bayonet fighting are decidedly two handed beasts. Or were you using an assault rifle simulator?
There's another problem--lefty righty. If you've done double weapon drills without having your brain melt, then you're either amazing or you are just tossing things around. It's extremely difficult to coordinate a single weapon in a fight, let alone two independent ones.
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Post by irondog on May 4, 2017 20:23:49 GMT
I like to think I am amazing. The bayoneted rifle is held from the middle of the gun. I normally orient the point up and treat it like a short spear. I have done 60-70% of the training with simulated rifle. The remaining 30-40% with an unloaded K-98. As for handedness I am a right hander so I put the rifle in the left and the saber in the right. As for coordinating two weapons I have some training in fighting with paired weapons. I have found training with paired weapons does increase coordination in general.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 4, 2017 21:33:28 GMT
That was my guess for what you did with the rifle, and why I thought of the saintie. (I just weighed and measured mine: 1.3kg and 45", 0.95kg and 42".)
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 4, 2017 21:46:13 GMT
Compared to what? I.e., what is your "usual"? Most of my paired weapon training comes from paired sticks and also blades about machete size. OK, compared to shorter lighter twin weapons. Makes sense. Of the styles mentioned Spear and dagger seemed most effective for me. The dagger just-in-case an opponent gets close is a good idea, but a good spearman doesn't let an opponent get in close so it shouldn't be needed (multiple opponents do make it harder to keep them away, so that's when it becomes potentially useful). But I'd want to keep both hands on the spear. So, to pair with a two-handed spear, the loop dagger: www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=266
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Post by Cosmoline on May 4, 2017 21:49:16 GMT
Oh I see. So are you couching it under the arm for thrusts?
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Post by irondog on May 4, 2017 22:00:44 GMT
but a good spearman doesn't let an opponent get in close The above is entirely true. -However, sometimes the other fighter is better. Also It is easier for an opponent to evade or parry a one handed spear thrust thus the dagger as a back up is a good idea. Also if the opponent closes too fast drop the spear and close in for knife work. A lot of folks (me sometimes too) will continue to hold onto a weapon even when it is unfavorable. Oh I see. So are you couching it under the arm for thrusts? -I never even thought to do that. LoL I learned something Normally I just keep it point up, it seems to do very well for thrusts to the face, abdomen and chest. The weakness of that form is the rifle hand is rather exposed.
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Post by Cosmoline on May 5, 2017 16:43:50 GMT
And the weight of the rifle makes the weak extra weak, especially when held only in one hand. Couching can help counter this if there's a grab. We do it a lot in harnessfetchen.
If you want to improve your skills at this, I'd suggest finding a set of drills for the weapon in the dominant hand, do them, then do that same drill in the left hand. Do a lot of left hand sparring. It will tend to hurt your brain, but that's the synapses connecting up. When you are solid with the non-dominant hand, you can then start working interlaced drills with the weapon combination.
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Post by irondog on May 5, 2017 17:33:48 GMT
Agreed when I started paired weapons training, machetes where awkward. The idea for rifle and saber came from some Images and texts from Napoleonic era. from what I have seen it was not THAT common. It seems to be more or less a case of availability. The bayonet attack can be weak if at an odd angle. Though it seems to have good power on straight upward or horizontal stabs. The coordination can be an issue when starting and off hand drills are great help too.
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Post by irondog on May 5, 2017 17:35:11 GMT
I should mention that myself and Darth and others do some paired weapon work at our club. Good times.
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Post by irondog on May 6, 2017 1:20:06 GMT
I Completely forgot I will have to test the couching of the rifle and stabbing from there (one handed) and see how that works.
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