stormmaster
Member
I like viking/migration era swords
Posts: 7,647
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Post by stormmaster on Jan 31, 2017 3:55:23 GMT
why wouldn't you cut with something thats near perfect in every way? it just makes the cutting even better, if its been properly made it should stand up very well to most cutting
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Post by Verity on Jan 31, 2017 21:47:36 GMT
Personal preference? I wouldn't cut with an antique... piece of history, obviously. I plan on cutting with my ATrim when the weather is better, but that's not quite at the 2000$ level. I have a functional katana that is only a wallhanger, not because it's super-expensive, but I like how it looks. Not to mention a 2000$ DH katana would worry me a little more than a 2000$ custom spring-tempered, through hardened piece. (I would still cut with the latter, but I'm probably very biased.) ... not sure if I could bring myself to cut with something like a Fableblades piece if I ever acquired one though. :) Tinker, ATrim, or Albion? Sure. I have cut with my Fables. They are awesome. I don't do it often because I don't want to have to repolish all the time, but a high end custom is not off the table for cutting for me. Those swords are meant to be used. Now I don't "abuse" them by trying to cut branches or trees, but milk jugs, tatami or rolled and soaked newspaper fall to their edge... I agree on antiques. I don't nor won't cut with those... but I know some folks do, and that is their choice and I respect it. Personally I feel antiques deserve appreciation and venerable adoration in their retirement. I view them as museums do, pieces for conservation through history and appreciation. But a $3-5k FableBlade? Bring it... my master sword cuts juuuuust fine and Brenno builds his stuff like tanks. My ATrim also cuts like a laser... I DO do the majority of my cutting practice with $300-500 swords though, since they are more easily replaced if I mess something up badly..
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Post by Faldarin on Jan 31, 2017 23:10:29 GMT
I should rephrase in that... with something like a Fableblades piece, I wouldn't worry about actual damage... but the polish after a good few cutting sessions would probably trigger me extremely hard, until I fixed it. I likely would have trouble sleeping. That, and I haven't had NEARLY enough practice polishing to add to my anxiety. If I was more comfortable with that? I'd be okay with it. The only thing stopping me cutting with the ATrim is the fact that my backyard is on and off a sheet of ice, right now. That is like an itch I want to scratch since I got it.
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Post by seriouslee on Jan 31, 2017 23:39:34 GMT
Personal preference? I wouldn't cut with an antique... piece of history, obviously. I plan on cutting with my ATrim when the weather is better, but that's not quite at the 2000$ level. I have a functional katana that is only a wallhanger, not because it's super-expensive, but I like how it looks. Not to mention a 2000$ DH katana would worry me a little more than a 2000$ custom spring-tempered, through hardened piece. (I would still cut with the latter, but I'm probably very biased.) ... not sure if I could bring myself to cut with something like a Fableblades piece if I ever acquired one though. Tinker, ATrim, or Albion? Sure. I have cut with my Fables. They are awesome. I don't do it often because I don't want to have to repolish all the time, but a high end custom is not off the table for cutting for me. Those swords are meant to be used. Now I don't "abuse" them by trying to cut branches or trees, but milk jugs, tatami or rolled and soaked newspaper fall to their edge... I agree on antiques. I don't nor won't cut with those... but I know some folks do, and that is their choice and I respect it. Personally I feel antiques deserve appreciation and venerable adoration in their retirement. I view them as museums do, pieces for conservation through history and appreciation. But a $3-5k FableBlade? Bring it... my master sword cuts juuuuust fine and Brenno builds his stuff like tanks. My ATrim also cuts like a laser... I DO do the majority of my cutting practice with $300-500 swords though, since they are more easily replaced if I mess something up badly.. That is precisely where I seem to be headed. The $200 - $300 range and then hack & slash until I fall over exhausted.
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Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Feb 1, 2017 0:01:26 GMT
Here I am finding myself stressing out about cutting with my 200$ swords when you guys cut with customs
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Post by seriouslee on Feb 1, 2017 0:41:21 GMT
Here I am finding myself stressing out about cutting with my 200$ swords when you guys cut with customs There comes a point when "scars" are tales to be told and not avoided. To be fair, I am old and it took a LONG time to reach that place.
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Post by seriouslee on Feb 1, 2017 0:46:00 GMT
Here I am finding myself stressing out about cutting with my 200$ swords when you guys cut with customs Oh, and you could grab a nice polypropylene beater for $15.
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Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Feb 1, 2017 0:48:48 GMT
I don't mind the marks but I'm mostly worried about chips and such. That and I live with family that would think I'm psychotic for owning swords so it's hard to get them anywhere
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Post by hypurr on Feb 1, 2017 2:09:00 GMT
I don't mind the scratches or imperfections that cutting does to my less expensive blades. In fact, I kind of admire them, like battle scars. All just minor, something major would probably eat at me. I don't know if I'd be cutting with a 3K dollar sword though.
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Post by Deepbluedave on Feb 1, 2017 6:50:10 GMT
I find that when I ready to purchase an expensive sword I decide before I buy it what I'm going to do with it some I use for cutting others not, I would not cut with a 2k antique, but a $200 one is fair game, modern swords from Albion or Longship are made to be used and most of my all time favourite cutting swords are in the 1k to 2k price range with the Albion "The Knecht" in top spot followed by my Longship Morrigan.
Do yourself a favour and use those swords its how you learn to appreciate the quality you paid for and five minutes with a scotch brite pad will have it looking like new. If you are still unsure of yourself or your skill level get a few lower priced swords and cut with them as long as you are not gardening with them they should be fine get a few mates over and have a bbq.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Feb 1, 2017 7:04:22 GMT
I should rephrase in that... with something like a Fableblades piece, I wouldn't worry about actual damage... but the polish after a good few cutting sessions would probably trigger me extremely hard, until I fixed it. I likely would have trouble sleeping. :) That, and I haven't had NEARLY enough practice polishing to add to my anxiety. If I was more comfortable with that? I'd be okay with it. I like this - haha. But rest assured Faldarin that I don't charge my prices because I spend days polishing the blade surface - I don't. I spend more time focusing on other details of the engineering, craft, fit and artwork. My blade finish is a satin finish done with wet and dry sandpapers working from 150 to get out any file or machine marks, then to 240 > 400, then usually a hand burnish with a piece of 1200. This is so that anyone will be able blend out their cutting session scuffs, just by running lengthways over the spot with 400 or 600, then longer strokes again with 800 or 1200 to blend it right in. I believe that as long as a finish is clean and consistent all over a piece, it looks great. It doesn't have to be an ultra fine polish - that doesn't help anyone. I always intend for my swords to be used if desired. Other options for parts maybe done with a scotch brite or wire brush wheel, or sand/bead blasting to create an even surface. But simple wet and dry is utilitarian for blade users. I believe a good majority of my customers on SBG cut with their fables. Swordfan and Shadowhowler, have done some mean tests on them. :-) I think swordfan did a triple tatami with his Excalibur.
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Post by Faldarin on Feb 1, 2017 13:46:29 GMT
It's definitely more for my own anxiety - I'm ever so slightly OCD about my swords. I'm sure after some more of my own practice blending out scratches that I'll be more familiar/confident with doing so. Everything I've seen and heard about your work has been top of the line. One day, sir, I will have a chat with you about a blade - but that's unfortunately not this day - yet.
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Post by stoicshadow on Feb 1, 2017 15:30:23 GMT
I should rephrase in that... with something like a Fableblades piece, I wouldn't worry about actual damage... but the polish after a good few cutting sessions would probably trigger me extremely hard, until I fixed it. I likely would have trouble sleeping. That, and I haven't had NEARLY enough practice polishing to add to my anxiety. If I was more comfortable with that? I'd be okay with it. I like this - haha. But rest assured Faldarin that I don't charge my prices because I spend days polishing the blade surface - I don't. I spend more time focusing on other details of the engineering, craft, fit and artwork. My blade finish is a satin finish done with wet and dry sandpapers working from 150 to get out any file or machine marks, then to 240 > 400, then usually a hand burnish with a piece of 1200. This is so that anyone will be able blend out their cutting session scuffs, just by running lengthways over the spot with 400 or 600, then longer strokes again with 800 or 1200 to blend it right in. I believe that as long as a finish is clean and consistent all over a piece, it looks great. It doesn't have to be an ultra fine polish - that doesn't help anyone. I always intend for my swords to be used if desired. Other options for parts maybe done with a scotch brite or wire brush wheel, or sand/bead blasting to create an even surface. But simple wet and dry is utilitarian for blade users. I believe a good majority of my customers on SBG cut with their fables. Swordfan and Shadowhowler, have done some mean tests on them. :-) I think swordfan did a triple tatami with his Excalibur. Should I be so lucky to own a fableblade, which is a long term consumer goal of mine, I would love the idea of being able to do reasonable cutting with it. My anxiety and frugality would likely hinder this no matter the level of assurance from others but hopefully I get over that by the time I could afford one. By reasonable I mean plastic water bottles and 1-3 rolled tatami mat cutting. Is triple rolled tatami really an example of a hard (torture test) for a fable blade like the Excalibur? I do not claim any expertise on this subject but my cutting technique is hardly refined and I am of modest size and I have cut double and triple tatami rolls with sub $300 1060/9260 steel katanas without any bending or chipping. I was not muscling the cuts either and these swords were not as sharp as they probably should be. The triple rolls are particularly difficult and I rarely cut through in one strike and the double rolls are done with maybe 75% success. I know the edge geometry of the different swords and their different size dimensions would affect their durability but is it fair to say one is taking a real risk of chipping or bending cutting triple rolled tatami on most fable blades?
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Post by hypurr on Feb 1, 2017 20:36:45 GMT
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Post by seriouslee on Feb 1, 2017 22:19:17 GMT
Is it the hardness of the edge? Is it the aesthetics? Adhering to ancient practices? Are these competition use? Assuming it is not an antique or a case of prohibitively high duties what properties could you expect? Here's a great example comparing apples to apples. Almost exactly 10x difference in price but not even in the same ballpark as far as quality goes. www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=500806&name=Leuterit+Viking+Swordwww.templ.net/english/weapons-antiquity_and_early_middle_age.php#130-swordThe expensive one is made with precious metals. I do not see differences other than that? The expensive one is folded but I cannot see the blade of the cheaper one well enough. What types of steel are used? It seems Japanese blades are rated more for the type of steel - depending on the type of use you prefer. Almost every set of ad copy talks about the HRC or type of steel, and they tend to get more specific than, "high carbon" steel with numbers. But medieval European style seem to be more about the other materials? Are they used or just for display?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 1, 2017 23:19:44 GMT
It seems Japanese blades are rated more for the type of steel - depending on the type of use you prefer. Almost every set of ad copy talks about the HRC or type of steel, and they tend to get more specific than, "high carbon" steel with numbers. But medieval European style seem to be more about the other materials? Are they used or just for display? Different advertising tradition. But it's common enough to see the steel specified for European swords. I think that there are 4 reasons why it isn't more common: - If the steel isn't specified, the maker can change the steel used without needing to change their descriptions, ad copy, etc.
- A lot of European-style swords are made in India, using E45, and EN45 confuses many people, especially in the US market, where some people think it's the same as 1045, whereas it's very close to 9260.
- European-style swords don't cater for the cult of hardness (of edges) that katanas do. Choice of steel and heat treatment is a compromise between hardness and toughness (and labour in grinding, chance of failure in heat treatment, etc.). The traditional Euro choice is tougher and less hard, compared to Japanese swords (not sure this is reflected by average antique munition swords from Japan, which seem to be similar in hardness to contemporary (i.e., late/post-Medieval) European swords, but it is by high-end swords). With that design choice, 1095 would be a worse choice of sword steel than 1060. But katana advertising has people thinking that 1095 is always better.
- There's much less variation in the steels used for functional Euros than in katanas. There are swarms of cheap 1045 functional katanas, and plenty of 1095, etc., katanas. Euros, OTOH, tend to be 0.55% to 0.75% carbon (due to the choice of aiming for a spring temper (the ideal is harder than the springiest spring temper, but one can still call it a spring temper), so it doesn't differentiate your product from others.
Personally, I think they should clearly and precisely state what steel they use (assuming they know, and if they don't know, they should say so clearly), unless they change their steel more often than they update their website. But 2 & 3 above are disadvantges that can follow from saying what steel you use, so I can sympathise with those who don't want to say. I think that makers should also clearly give weights, POB, pivot points, and blade thicknesses (and enough points on the blade to judge distal taper). At least weight, POB, and thickness. Ideally also hardness, but that's harder to measure well. If thickness or other stats make the product look bad, the product should be improved. Quoted HRC values for katana edge hardness are often wishful thinking: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/39740/testing-results-various-production-blades
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Post by Verity on Feb 1, 2017 23:33:07 GMT
I don't mind the marks but I'm mostly worried about chips and such. That and I live with family that would think I'm psychotic for owning swords so it's hard to get them anywhere Unless you cut a steel pole, I highly doubt you will chip an ATrim , an Odinblade or a Fable... :)
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Post by seriouslee on Feb 2, 2017 1:44:34 GMT
1045 cheapie Four such cuts and not a mark on it.
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Post by ineffableone on Feb 2, 2017 1:56:56 GMT
I bought a very cheap Mushashi (1045 - $50) and everything that could be loose was loose. Fit & finish left much to be desired. Then I bought a slightly better Munetoshi (Sword & Armory's house brand - 1060 - $120) and it was the difference between night & day. Fit & finish was 100% better. Everything fit, nothing was loose. It drew from the saya (scabbard) easily even with the cling wrap. After I cleaned it up it still fits snug but not tight. The materials are that much better. Iron versus cheap castings (probably zinc on the cheaper blade). Supposedly real ray skin etc. One (1060) can hold an edge even with real use. I have a tall pole (>7') in the backyard that I use for slicing moves. The other (1045) began to roll almost immediately. So I wondered if there was that much difference stepping up in tiny incremental steps once you start buying more expensive blades. Thus this thread. P.S. I play guitar (52 years) and while I wouldn't mind a really expensive custom I'll sound the same on a $500 mass produced guitar. Ok so your mostly talking about Japanese style katana for your question I suspect. Others have covered the Euro and custom side answers. With katana, the big thing I have seen is there is diminishing returns on how much you pay vs what you get. In the beginning going for cheap to moderate prices you see a big difference, then to average priced you get some change but not as great a difference, but then as you go higher it is less and less obvious what your getting. The details become more and more subtle little things that are more aesthetic rather than functional and more and more expensive polish for the blade. Those $50-$100 range can be a bit rough around the edges. Some poor furniture, blade geometry, etc... Bump up to the $200-$300 range and your getting typically decent blades but some compromises on furniture. Bump up to the the $400-$500 range and now you have decent furniture typically. Up to $600-$800 and you just added a slightly better polish. $1000 plus you get more personal attention during creation by one single craftsman rather than assembly line production, and a better polish. $2000 plus your just paying for high quality polish or being sold on name and hype rather than actual real differences. Thaitsuki is a great example of a forge selling $600-$800 swords for $1-$2K due to marketing not because they actually have $1-$2K quality. Something I have not seen covered much in this thread is polish cost. Polish can cost hundreds or thousands of dollars. So when I am saying higher end katana you start seeing most of the extra $ going to polish this is why. High quality polish is very labor intensive with tiny stones slowly working the blade length, and careful following of the hamon to highlight it. Like the signing of the sword smith, the high end polisher actually signs their polish work too. For most of us sword enthusiasts these high end polishes are unnecessary. Especially if you want to do any cutting. As cutting will destroy such a polish.
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Post by seriouslee on Feb 2, 2017 2:11:41 GMT
^^^Thanks, great information.
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