Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 29, 2019 5:55:00 GMT
Thank you very much for the PDF. I read the first 2 pages, have to go to work, but this promises to be very good reading indeed.
Why do I get the impression that there is not very much research done in fields like these? I mean this particular subject. We know about water power in general, but what do we know about all the things that were made using it. The making of a button or spadroon grips, or what tools were used. Whole cities depended on the making of buttons and little clasps. The factories and the mass of home workers. Volumes have been written about the social consequenses and the politics, but nobody can tell me exactly how a button, or little shoe clasp, or a spadroon grip were made. Or how, exactly, step for step, a Solingen or Klingenthal blade was forged. Maybe the knowledge is out there still, though somehow I doubt that. Maybe little books are out there somewhere and I just cannot find them. But I have this eerie feeling our whole past is sanitized away, like the lives of all those little people, doing their little thing like making a spadroon grip, who helped build in their little way, the world we live in, is shoved into the bin. Was in Liège the other day. World famous it was for the forges and mills and the guns etc. Thousands made a living making the needed small stuff at home, making springs, carving stocks. There is absolutly nothing left of it. It's all gone. Like it was never there. Stuff like that bugs me plenty.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2019 12:06:28 GMT
Guilds, then patents and researching manufacturing technique is certainly a lifetime task but we might miss specifics when ignoring the generalities. Rollers and dies for a wide use of working metal. Punches, presses. Little changes even today. There are Wilkinson briefs, photos and iirc a video or three regarding their forging. Horstmann was one of several button makers but in terms of metal ones, examination leads to method clues. Much of it mechanical vertical motions punching, pressing and crimping. There is not much detail of the method though, as fairly straight forward. Some more reading A history of American manufactures, from 1608 to 1860 Volume II (one can read all three volumes free) books.google.com/books?id=DQ5aAAAAYAAJVol I books.google.com/books?id=dNgrAAAAYAAJVol III books.google.com/books?id=EtQrAAAAYAAJMore Horstmann www.workshopoftheworld.com/center_city/horstmann.htmlHorace Greeley and his Great Industries book (includes a visit to Horstmann) books.google.com/books?id=6UQaAAAAYAAJThere are many millions of pages to read, it is more a matter of narrowing a search. There are as many more pages wherever one looks. Say at the British History online site, as are there sites for so many locations and timelines. I'll spend a lifetime on a few decades of the distribution regarding American swords, let alone all the processes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2019 12:56:01 GMT
As a further aside, I reside a few hills away from Slatersville. A mill ville where Mansfield&Lamb had a contract for the US light cavalry sword during our civil war. They were farm machinery and scythe manufacturers. Providence Tool, geared up for muskets, bayonets and swords. Ames and Roby in neighboring Massachusetts but all states of New England were mill oriented in larger population centers. The village of Pascoag, where I currently live is directly across from where there was once a large mill. The attached map shows how many mills in that single village. One village of several in the town of Burrillville. Open the image in another tab or window.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 29, 2019 17:27:17 GMT
Thanks a ton for the links! Made a folder and stored them there. Downloaded the really beautiful map.
Cheers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2019 19:50:37 GMT
My apt building was built on the knoll across from the Lincon Mill on North Main, Fred Sayles Co (#16) and almost replicates the footprint of what must have been the tenement and office buildings for the Lincoln Mill. Flanked by a general store #34.
I was previously living in an 1900 era two family tenement built for employees of the Glendale mill (that mill redone several times and still there as a plastics fabric factory). There on the other side of Burrillville. Pascoag was the largest of the villages in town. HP Lovecraft mentions Pascoag in (iirc) The Horror at Red Hook.
Burrillville has an interesting history, in and of itself. The 1856 book of its history quite intriguing
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 30, 2019 12:05:35 GMT
I just spend a highly agreeable 3 hours exploring your Bailey map. There is so much to see and ponder. Found 16 and 34. 5 minutes walk from Main Street. Not bad. Found Mr. Buxtons florist business with all those glasshouses. He must have grown more in there than just flowers. Maybe oranges, lemons, avocados to keep the kids from the Houses alive during winter? My first reaction was ,, what is a florist doing there in the middle of nowhere'', but then remembered the estates and the ladies that ran them. The two grave yards, one probably Protestant and the other Catholic, but as far as I can see, sharing the little morgue. How pragmatic. Harrisville though doesn't look that florishing. Wrong side of the track? Astonishing the amount of energy spend here, focussed in this small spot. For those interested to know a bit more about the ,, Aero '' maps and the men who made them: vintagecitymaps.com/history/ They have a lot of these maps in store, sorted by State. Again, thanks a ton. Cheers. P.S. Am currently exploring the Burrillville website set up by Mrs. P. Merthens.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 12:52:42 GMT
Harrisville is where town hall is now located and the Stillwater mill building still stands, remade into the Clock Tower apts and the library. As such, Harrisville is more a bedroom community than some of the other villages of Burrillville. Even now, this corner of Rhode Island is considered a little remote and only slightly regarded by most of the state and region. The maps from Bailey are amazing. Kind regards to our town historian but ...... archive.org/details/burrillvilleasit00keac/page/n4I hopefully receive the new spadroon today. I'll probably have information regarding the specifications up tomorrow.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 30, 2019 17:12:55 GMT
Another book for the folder. Read the introduction and the contents. This is going to be a feast. Thanks very much.
My Bersaglieri is in limbo. I payed for the thing on Saturday. It is Wednesday now and nothing is happening. Notified the seller on Monday that I'd like the tracking number etc. He answered he would take care to do so. I sure hope I did not get stiffed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 19:38:20 GMT
Across the US in two days, the eagle has landed. A few preview shots for now. You can see the traces of its original silver wash on the inside pf the counterguard. The grip creamy goodness of mammoth ivory. Note the two sides of the eagle's face are ever so slightly asymmetric. They tend to stare me down at times. I be hipmotizzzzed! ZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz This one may be a tough call on doing a silver wash If I were to go that route, it would need a scabbard restoration and then polishing out the blade beyond the original grinds. OTOH, some cleaning first, if only to get the dirt off and out of the feathers. I'd have to start there anyway if I plan to do the silver. The ivory first (gentle is as gentle does).
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 30, 2019 20:19:16 GMT
Beautiful! And no cracks in the ivory. I hope the grip sits tight? At first glance I thought about using some amonia in water or vinegar to clean the bronze from the black incrustations, but then again I think keeping the tang channel dry has priority. Not too long ago I would have plated the whole thing. Tastes change I guess. Now I like the old silver look, black crud and all. It gives an old sword much character. Not that you want or need my advice, but I would break out the Holland silver plating solution and a couple of cotton swabs and just start rubbing over the worn down areas. The slightly acidic solution will clean and plate in one go and so leave the old plate intact. Same with the scabbard fittings. It is just a wash, but it will make the hilt whole again. But never mind me. Just cannot help sticking my nose where it does not belong. Ring hilt Eagle spadroon?
Update on my Italian sabre: The postal service has an alert out that large parts of France are in the orange zone, because of fierce snow storm Gabriel. The orange zone is the worst and the sabre sits smack in the middle. Still the seller got out and to the Post Office yesterday. Now, that is what I call service. I could have waited a week if I only knew the reason of the delay. This act is very much appreciated, but also stupid as all hell. The sabre is at the train station but there are no trains running with all that snow on the tracks. La gloire qui est La France. At least I didn't get burned. Sorry Mr. X.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 5:44:12 GMT
More detail of the casting being revealed. Open the image in a new tab and enlarge to see the finer detail around the eye and feathering. I need my first baby here to show the comparison, as the feathering is even more defined. This is about the best color balance after several tries. You can see more of the silver remains as I uncover the base from the dirt. There was a slight wobble to the pommel (fixed with one of my patent supplies). These are hollow at the collar. The grip tight, ferrule and guard with a very little looseness. The original bumper/blade seat is there, so no gap. Not really elbow grease here but idle work while peeling some dirt out from the grip reeding and dry cleaning the pommel a bit. There is still a lot of grime but you can see the difference from those first pictures. I've not said it in awhile but I am quite as chuffed as when the haudegen came in. I have to be really good now until the next one. Specifications tomorrow I hope.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 4, 2019 23:21:17 GMT
Very fine detail indeed and expert chasing. On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate your Eagle? Asking because one day soon I will have to look at my Eagle and review it. Having some form of standard would be a great help.
Cheers.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2019 0:00:21 GMT
Scabbard aside, I would rate the sword itself at about a seven out of ten. The silver wash and blade staining bring it down a bit. There is a very minor bit of ivory chipping, almost unnoticed but there are a couple of very small chips at the pommel collar. The grips are always a big deal to me. Never having been sharpened, the blade is much as it was new but staining and a little rust at the guard. If rating it , one to ten, with the scabbard; I'd still not judge it at more than an eight. The scabbard is in decent shape but missing its toe and bottom fitting. I honestly see no trace of silvering on the scabbard fittings but that may have been stripped decades ago, as it seems to have some varnish. I keep say "tomorrow" for measurements and comparison to another spadroon I have here. I am mired a bit in bookkeeping chores and generally hibernating. The Tom Nardi value grades are not dissimilar to firearm valuation and I would put mine (collectively) at the top of the quadrant as "fair" swordrestorationtn.com/values.htmIf we were to establish more levels, I might say it is "fair plus", adding three brackets within those four. Gunderson has such, a more NRA like scale with more grades. Browsing his stuff will give an even lessr item, a greater (perceived) value. www.gundersonmilitaria.com/swordad.htmlI look forward to seeing your sword write up and I really need to get cracking on this one (and dozens of other projects).
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 5, 2019 1:16:08 GMT
That is quite a collection you have there Edelweiss.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 5, 2019 17:50:07 GMT
Thank you for your reply. Looking at the pommel it is amazing the amount of detail that was covered by (greasy) dirt. In the first pictures there's nothing much to see. To me, the pommel with its detail should be valued at somewhere close to 10 or 10? I mean what more can one do with an Eagle pommel aside from carving the thing from a piece of rock crystal or something. Which brings me to the observation that the pommel with all its fabulous detail almost seems to come from a different world than the, at first sight, rather straightforward no-nonsense rest of the hilt components. The quality of those, to my eye at least, sits more in the tension of the curves and the proportions of the parts and the play between them. I see this picture now of a really excellent 18th C. Louis XVI chair flanked by two equally excellent Shaker chairs.
Cheers.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2019 17:58:16 GMT
Some numbers for now and mostly in metric. I have yet to dig out another for direct comparison and bear with me in describing the point of greatest deflection to illustrate the distal taper. This deflection would be at the center of the arc where the blade shows the greatest flexibility. Near other nodes and descriptions of center of percussion, forward point of rotation, what have you but I am attempting to show where changes in the distal taper are occurring. As this is a backsword of types, the greatest thickness judges not just the spine but at the point of greatest deflection becomes a more uniform cross section across the peaks of the fuller. More on this in other descriptions and my methodology may seem a bit unorthodox but kind of like the waggle test to determine a forward point of rotation. Weight 708.73 grams, or about 1lb 9ozs (a hefty spadroon!) Overall length, peen to blade tip is 96.5 cm Blade length 83 cm or about 32 11/16" (a touch longer than many spadroons I own) Blade width at guard 31 mm Blade width at mid blade 25 mm Blade width 31 mm back from the point 17 mm POB or COG 14 cm from the guard My coined POGD term (coincidentally) roughly 14 cm back from the point In describing my POGD, grab the pointy end of a blade and use your thumb as a fulcrum. Let the weight of the sword bend over the fulcrum. Far from scientific but I feel it is a prudent way to check flexibility. An extreme would be this photo. No swords were harmed in this experiment. Note, this is not the spadroon being detailed. In this photo, I am using my index finger as the fulcrum but am grasping just the tip of a very thin blade, with the sword's weight flexing the blade. The distal properties of this particular spadroon show a shallow concave distal but very close to quite linear. Spine thickness at the guard 8mm Spine thickness at the POB 6mm At 50 cm from the guard 4mm (the fuller peaks are beginning to be the high points) At my POGD 14 cm from tip 3mm (before this area the fuller peaks dictate thickness) 31 mm from the point 2mm I think I have dotted the Ts and crossed the Is At least enough to get some numbers up. Do experiment with sword weight deflecting the blade over a fulcrum. This could be shown as well as simply grounding the point and pushing but to me, is less telling. Clamping a blade in a vice, another way to go but I would advise against it. Tips break quickly. Using just my hand and fingers gives me the best organic feedback but your mileage may vary. Some, I'm sure, may feel uneasy in testing this way. What I am showing may be less stressful to a blade than many proof tests.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2019 18:12:02 GMT
Thank you for your reply. Looking at the pommel it is amazing the amount of detail that was covered by (greasy) dirt. In the first pictures there's nothing much to see. To me, the pommel with its detail should be valued at somewhere close to 10 or 10? I mean what more can one do with an Eagle pommel aside from carving the thing from a piece of rock crystal or something. Which brings me to the observation that the pommel with all its fabulous detail almost seems to come from a different world than the, at first sight, rather straightforward no-nonsense rest of the hilt components. The quality of those, to my eye at least, sits more in the tension of the curves and the proportions of the parts and the play between them. I see this picture now of a really excellent 18th C. Louis XVI chair flanked by two equally excellent Shaker chairs. Cheers. Considering that the weepers are one of the less ornate of the genre, the casting and chasing a testament to the British artisans. With Mowbray in hand, I am sure you are seeing some of the other most excellent craftsmanship. I've mentioned these as a favorite but I could exclaim that of many eagles. There are certainly European swords with as much fine detail but the variety of the eagles seemingly endless in variety and why I continue to archive images. Just when I think I have seen them all, something else comes along. Just trying to track the original Ketland, Bolton and Osborn types is what I will likely spend a lifetime in detailing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 16:26:39 GMT
Well, one thing for sure. I definitely need to add a digital scale to the mix but my fishing spring scale has always seemed fine for my needs. I've dug out the other spadroon from last year and done some measuring. I had pictured it in this thread. sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/53193/smallsword-spadroonWeight 680.4 grams about an ounce lighter than the eagle. Overall length, peen to blade tip is 96.5 cm Identical but has a tang button Blade length 82.4 cm or about 32 3/8" (also a touch longer than many spadroons I own) Blade width at guard 29 mm Blade width at mid blade 21 mm Blade width 25 mm back from the point 14 mm POB or COG 15 cm from the guard My coined POGD term 9 cm back from the point The pommel on this sword likely solid (or appears to be) vs the hollow base of the eagle. That offsets what is a dimensionally smaller blade. The distal properties quite similar and as with the above, does not have some of the radical concave distal and is almost linear. Spine thickness at the guard 8.5 mm Spine thickness at the POB 6 mm At 50 cm from the guard 4 mm (the fuller peaks are beginning to be the high points) At my POGD 9 cm from tip 3mm (before this area the fuller peaks dictate thickness) 25 mm from the point 2mm (this point is where the profile curves to the tip) Overall, this is a slightly stiffer blade with less deflection and has a sharper point. I believe this sword was also English made but I have not found a twin pommel of this type Some elements do hearken to First Empire French long neck pommels but this sword's pommel is overall dissimilar to virtually "everything". Along with my deflection "flexy" numbers I am going to try to set these two up side by side for a static comparison of stiffness and photograph that. There is something else I want to capture of some strange blade spine marks but those theories probably just coincidence between these two. As different as these two may seem, they seem somewhat typical of the genre in general. Yes, there are some skinny floppy noodle blades on spadroons but these two are on the stiffer end of the scale. Going strictly by numbers, there is something different about the mass distribution on this one. A smidge lighter but the cog/pob 1cm further out but a possibly heavier pommel. The horn lighter than ivory? That would be negligible. The other hilt components actually look heavier than the plain stirrup on this one. I'll have to look at some other blade cross sections of both but think I will find the broader blade a bit thinner at the primary edge grind. Fuller depths and some other minutiae. Both are in the 1.5 lb range.
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Post by markus313 on Feb 6, 2019 16:36:45 GMT
Excellent info provided in this thread. Many thanks. Please keep it coming. This is great.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2019 16:27:57 GMT
A short refrain for now. I have still not shown blade flex but it is on the list. In browsing this past week, a pommel of this type was listed and almost shows how hollow these are. Not singular to the eagles, the pillow/cushion and urn pommels are also similarly hollow. This speaks somewhat that the pommels alone don't necessarily dictate handling. A truth more grinders need to pay attention to. A bare blade should speak as to mass distribution before adding the hilts. Anyway, let me see if I can find another few (in files somewhere) hollow with a tang for comparison. A later hollow German French influenced bird Another later with faux US Widmann characteristics, 1840s I need an administrative assistant to dig through my files but I'll be including a chapter on castings probably when I get to doing a serious book or just an Eagles 4.0 annotated file dump in the clouds. Anyway, I'll pull some more out in this post. A 1790s Thurkle pommel Fire gilding on Brittania metal. The above stripped of its gold and grey looking A few more here and still not at the file I was looking for. Ah, here it is in the unsorted file and was at Shiloh Relics in 2009 A smaller bird but we get to see a lot. Two more for the road. A brief look at one definitive trait of the early Ketland type pommels. What we describe as the Ketland wedge. Note, we group eagles quite a lot as to type rather than maker. Ketland was a large company selling all sorts of goods. This example clearly shows the casting join or heck of a lot sprue material. We see it on the first decade of these distinctive crested eagles with other later siblings chased clean of the sprue. Entirely different than the older ones but almost exactly the same. Strange stuff but a lifetime of study. Finally for now, Emmor T Weaver, an early Philadelphia cutler/furbisher/importer/silversmith/retailer/etc His pommels almost looks like or certainly cast in halves, then joined. Another note for another day would be floating pommels vs backstraps but in both cases, hollowness prevalent in pommels defying the modern producers of reproductions. Grips as well, echoing inside
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