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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2017 2:06:55 GMT
No doubt, a bit like debating cut or thrust. I had been taught by an old sage with a 1911 Commander that carried his that way. As he was missing a lot of his left hand, it seemed kind of a tense thing to be doing. I know in the modern world, numerous pistols have de-cocking built into the safeties but it seems like either not loading a round and racking into action, or cocked and locked are really the best options. Pistols with a larger spur trigger seem ready made for condition 2 readiness but the 1911s without a de-cocking device it makes a lot of people nervous.
I anticipate most will say cocked and locked is gospel, while a lot of oldsters do indeed carry or expect action at condition 2.
Thoughts? Essay quality comment (partly kidding but there may be good advice here)?
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Post by Verity on Jan 2, 2017 2:31:04 GMT
Hammer down on a loaded chamber on a 1911 is a no-no. For a couple of very important reasons.
Modern 1911 designs use a firing pin block that is engaged with the hammer back. When you lower the hammer you are disengaging this critical safety feature.
Pistols that have decockers usually have similar safety mechanisms that stay engaged during the decocking sequence (an Beretta 92FS/m9 for example has a physical block that engages as you flip the safety/decocker that prevents the hammer from striking the firing pin).
A 1911 (modern design with the firing pin block) with the hammer back can be dropped muzzle down and it will not discharge. If the hammer is down on a loaded chamber and you do the same... boom.
Never mention the fact that you have intentionally disengaged the manual safety, and the grip safety, then put your finger on the trigger and pressed it. What if your thumb slips and you don't catch the hammer?
A 1911 was designed to be carried (when loaded) in condition one (round in chamber, hammer back, safety engaged).
Also to employ, you flip the safety with a snick and fire. As opposed to cocking the hammer...?
I can't imagine why anyone would carry a 1911 any way except in condition one. That is how it was designed to be carried.
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Post by bluetrain on Jan 2, 2017 11:13:12 GMT
I have no idea how it was designed to be carried. It can't be carried cocked and locked in an army issue holster. In any event, the instructions in the US Army NCO manual from 1917 said to carry it hammer down on a loaded chamber. The same manual says to carry a revolver with hammer down on an empty chamber. They were all Colts, of course. Real Colts. The firing pin safety on a Colt 1991 series is always engaged except when the trigger is pulled. As far as dropping the pistol, I can only suggest practicing handling the pistol until you no longer drop it. Extra practice might be necessary if you are going to do a walk and draw thing. Hammer down on a loaded chamber was no longer the practice fifty years later when I was in the army, although training on the pistol was not something everyone did. But it's nothing to rack the slide on a .45 automatic. It's something you do all the time and it's one of the easiest to manipulate. Not as easy as, say, a Glock, which has more gripping surface, but a lot easier than CZs and Walthers. Anyway, it's just about as easy to cock the hammer when drawing the pistol as it is to "flip the safety with a snick." Remember, the stock safety, especially on the older models, was small and the first thing to be replaced by those who wanted to keep up with the times, although they're easier to accidently disengage. It was also fashionable for a while to pin down the grip safety. I never had a problem with that but maybe some people have weak hands. It's always interesting to read about what was considered essential in handgunning a few decades ago. It was only when Jeff Cooper started promoting the .45 auto that it became popular. A "modern 1911 design" sounds confused anyway. For a while you could have your Colt Government Model modified to double action, too.
The Commander model, however, is different.
I think the Commander model, especially the lightweight model, is a nice package. Most handguns anymore are much too thick for my taste. They have rowel hammers and that does not lend itself to easy manipulation with the thumb, either going up or going down. Naturally, extreme care is necessary with the regular spur hammer but extreme care is necessary with a loaded gun anyway.
I make no recommendations. You have to make your own judgements concerning pistols.
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Jan 2, 2017 12:55:18 GMT
I own 2 1911's... I would never even consider carrying them with the hammer down and safety off on a loaded chamber. Cocked and locked all the way. However, I own other pistols that are SA/DA with a decocker, no safety. I carry those loaded hammer down. The first trigger pull is dibble action and around 10-12lb pull.
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Post by bluetrain on Jan 2, 2017 13:29:29 GMT
Would you carry a Glock with a loaded chamber? In theory, a Colt Government Model or Commander model could be carried without the safety on just as safely as a Glock, not that I would. But for what it's worth, there are other models of handguns with no active safety lever presumably intended to be carried with a loaded chamber.
And speaking of Colts, I've owned both a lightweight Commander model as well as a lightweight Officer's ACP (this was about 25 years ago), both in .45 ACP. The Commander was one of the easiest guns to shoot I've ever had, given the caliber. But the lightweight Officer's ACP was in contrast, a real handful. You really had to hang onto it when you fired it and it really twisted in the hand, too. On the other hand, the blast was nothing like a .357 from a 4-inch barrel. My personal favorite was a .38 Super with a 5-inch barrel. Colt claimed it had "unsurpassed power" and "will stop any animal on the American continent. But the Government Model was also described as "extremely powerful." Colt also had a revolver which was described as "compact, absolutely dependable and powerful." The revolver was the Banker's Special, chambered in .22 Long Rifle, also in .38 New Police, same as the .38 S&W (regular, not special).
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Post by brotherbanzai on Jan 2, 2017 16:09:44 GMT
A Glock has a safety on the trigger preventing the pistol from firing if something snags on the edge of the trigger rather than a deliberate pull on the trigger and safety together. It also has a firing pin block which is moved out of the way only as the trigger is pulled as well as a drop safety engaging at the rear of the firing pin.
I would (and do) carry stiker fired pistols with a loaded chamber (Glock or similar), DA/SA pistols with a decocker and no safety with a round in the chamber but decocked, and 1911's cocked and locked. They're all the same in usage in this way; grip, draw, squeeze the trigger, bang. The slight differences being the grip on a 1911 is not quite the same as the thumb position needs to disengage the safety when gripping, and a DA/SA with the hammer down will have a longer first pull. When you grip a 1911 in the holster, the thumb is on the safety. As the pistol is drawn and the grip tightens, the thumb presses down and the safety is disengaged. No separate movement is needed as there would be to thumb the hammer.
Having to pull a hammer back (which is less safe on a 1911 than cocked and locked anyway) or rack a slide on a carry gun just creates more stuff to fumble with or forget in the heat of a life or death moment. Of course you can train to overcome this, but it seems like unnecessarily overcomplicating something I would prefer to be very simple. I don't expect to ever have to use my carry pistol, but if I ever did, I'm pretty sure my mind will be plenty occupied with more important details.
"Accidental" discharges are almost always really negligent discharges. They had their finger on the trigger. I believe they also most often occur when holstering at drawing a handgun, which is why I personally won't appendix carry.
Anyone can drop a pistol, especially under unknown or unfamiliar conditions, or while injured, or while in a numbing adrenaline rush, or even under the controlled conditions of a range. Saying, " practicing handling the pistol until you no longer drop it", is a bit like suggesting that someone practice driving until they no longer get into accidents so they no longer need to concern themselves with airbags or seatbelts.
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Post by bluetrain on Jan 2, 2017 18:08:34 GMT
To argue an accidental discharge is really a negligent discharge is an attempt to define a problem out of existence. Likewise, to claim that to flick off the (standard) safety is less fumble-proof than racking the slide is not necessarily true, since one requires a fine motor skill, the other a gross motor skill, if you follow me. Either way, avoiding an accident with a handgun is the most important thing, unless you don't think it's as bad to shoot yourself as it is for someone else to shoot you. And you shouldn't drop your gun, either. Disengaging the safety is in fact a separate movement, as separate as pulling (or pressing, if you prefer) the trigger.
The comparison with driving is poor because someone else could be at fault in a motor vehicle accident. My car was totally destroyed in an accident and I was in bed at the time. But if you drop your gun, you couldn't easily blame someone else though some people will. Safety over speed, all the time.
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Post by Verity on Jan 2, 2017 18:34:21 GMT
The point about dropping the weapon was simply to point out the fact the firing pin is locked in place by the block when the hammer is back, and not so when the hammer is down. I am pointing out the mechanical aspects of that passive safety mechanism built into the firearm. Not that one should do it.
Carry however you want to. The OP asked a question and I answered it with reasoning based upon the firearm's design and simple physics.
And in terms of sheer speed, flicking off a safety is a faster action than racking the slide. Period. Distance of motion and force necessary to perform the action. Again. Simple physics.
No one is criticizing you for how you wish to carry. Nor is it worth bickering over. This is not the first time I have seen this debate.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2017 19:03:29 GMT
I guess my wonder would be why the spur hammers persisted and even the Commander hammers are knurled/checkered or grooved. Despite and due to physics regarding the 1911, isn't the fire pin itself shorter in distance between the hammer and primer, thus requiring falling from fully cocked or (possibly) a blow on the muzzle (as described).
Another case of chambered and de-cocked I can remember in experience is the 03-A3 rifle. A distinct difference from its Mauser heritage in cocking when opening the bolt and being able to close the bolt on a chambered round, de-cocking when holding the trigger. The cocking mechanism with a knurled knob to pull back for action. In a sense, very similar in having a floating firing pin requiring the spring & "hammer" to fire the cartridge. No knob on the parent Mausers. Weird or purposeful?
A 1911 certainly one of the safest pistols out there, with an almost redundancy of safeties. The old guy who showed me years ago regarded it as safer than setting the hammer at the half cock notch but that some do use that method. The arguments are several against half cocked.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2017 19:08:21 GMT
On a more humorous note, less than cocked resulting in roosters, much like typing katana returns banana at the Schola Gladitoria site
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Post by bluetrain on Jan 2, 2017 20:25:29 GMT
It is a good question as to why the spur hammer existed in the first place. Some DA/SA pistols have no spur. But the firing pin safety works with the hammer down on a 1991 model Colt, not just when it is cocked and locked. But they still make a version without the firing pin safety because some customers believe that it is more likely to cause malfunctions. I don't know if it does or not but that's why some knowledgeable people used to pin down the grip safety. Some pre-1911 models designed by Browning had no thumb safety.
It is probably true that it is faster to use cocked and locked than to rack the slide but if you were using the original Browning-designed thumb safety, it would be tricky. The question is, is the additional speed significantly faster. The usual response is "what if you only had one hand" or "what if one hand were injured?" Obviously, you're always going to bring both hands with you and the possibility of having one hand injured is the same for both hands. Fairbairn went through all of these objections and still recommended chamber-empty carry, even going to the extent of pinning down the thumb safety (not the grip safety) for issue .45 autos in his department. But he ended by saying that you're free to do whatever you want as long as you give him the same courtesy.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Jan 2, 2017 22:29:23 GMT
To argue an accidental discharge is really a negligent discharge is an attempt to define a problem out of existence. Likewise, to claim that to flick off the (standard) safety is less fumble-proof than racking the slide is not necessarily true, since one requires a fine motor skill, the other a gross motor skill, if you follow me. Either way, avoiding an accident with a handgun is the most important thing, unless you don't think it's as bad to shoot yourself as it is for someone else to shoot you. And you shouldn't drop your gun, either. Disengaging the safety is in fact a separate movement, as separate as pulling (or pressing, if you prefer) the trigger. The comparison with driving is poor because someone else could be at fault in a motor vehicle accident. My car was totally destroyed in an accident and I was in bed at the time. But if you drop your gun, you couldn't easily blame someone else though some people will. Safety over speed, all the time. I did not argue that an accidental discharge was the same as a negligent discharge. I pointed out that what is often referred to as an accidental discharge is more commonly the fault of the person holding the firearm (pulling the trigger when they didn't mean to or when they thought it was unloaded) rather than a design fault of the firearm itself. This is not an attempt to "define a problem out of existence" whatever that is, it is pointing out the actual nature of a specific problem which should be widely understood in order to be avoided. I can't speak for how others disengage the safety on their 1911 pistols. When I grip the pistol before I have withdrawn it from the holster, my thumb is on the safety as that is part of how I grip a 1911. My thumb doesn't make a separate, isolated movement to flick off the safety; as I tighten my grip while bringing up the support hand, the safety goes off and my thumb stays there. For me personally, that is not a fine motor skill, if you consider gripping the handgun to be a fine motor skill, then I suppose it could be. I can think of a number of ways in which someone else could be to blame for you dropping your pistol. You could be bumped as someone walks by you at the range while you were in the process of doing something with the pistol which put it into a less than ideal grip. Someone else could inadvertently drop something on you or in your path as you were moving, causing you to fall and impact your hand or arm with sufficient force to loose your hold. You could end up struggling physically with an assailant. And on and on... Close to 20,000 people are killed in single vehicle accidents each year in the US, but you can choose to ignore that as well if you'd like to believe the comparison is poor. However, attacking the analogy doesn't alter the fact that suggesting "practicing until you no longer drop it" in response to someone discussing drop safeties is rather flippant and unhelpful.
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Post by bluetrain on Jan 2, 2017 22:49:05 GMT
I was assuming that accidents are always the fault of the user. I say that even though I once handled a gun, which was a .22 rifle, that would fire when you closed the bolt. I ignore automobile accidents because automobiles are not intended for killing. As for dropping the pistol, all I can say, is hold on tighter. How many people do you suppose are killed "accidentally" with guns each year? And for that matter, how many unintentional firearm discharges are caused by dropping the gun? Are you personally familiar with any?
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Post by Alan Schiff on Jan 2, 2017 23:55:58 GMT
As far as I'm concerned, a single action handgun, like the 1911, should be carried cocked and locked. Colonel Cooper defined the "conditions of readiness" from fastest response to slowest, so condition 1 requires less time to fire than condition 2 or 3. I carry mine in condition 1. I see no point in carrying condition 2 at all, since if you still have to cock it you may as well just keep the chamber empty and rack the slide. Arguably that is the "safest" method to carry, but again response time is longer.
Regarding cocking/racking vs. disengaging the safety, the proper grip for a 1911 has the thumb always in contact with the safety, so it would require much less movement to disengage the safety than to bring the off-hand up and rack the slide or move the thumb off the safety and stretch to cock the hammer.
As far as the Army manual, or any US military instructions for use goes, remember that Browning designed the 1911 without a grip safety and that the military ordered him to put one in. From a design standpoint, the thumb safety is perfectly adequate, but the military wanted extra insurance. As such, any official instructions are suspect in regards to safe operating procedures, as they took extra, unnecessary precautions.
And, furthering what Findlithui wrote, remember that no matter what you do, the first rule of firearm safety is to never point it at anything you're not willing to destroy.
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Jan 3, 2017 6:08:50 GMT
A Glock has a safety on the trigger preventing the pistol from firing if something snags on the edge of the trigger rather than a deliberate pull on the trigger and safety together. It also has a firing pin block which is moved out of the way only as the trigger is pulled as well as a drop safety engaging at the rear of the firing pin. I would (and do) carry stiker fired pistols with a loaded chamber (Glock or similar), DA/SA pistols with a decocker and no safety with a round in the chamber but decocked, and 1911's cocked and locked. They're all the same in usage in this way; grip, draw, squeeze the trigger, bang. The slight differences being the grip on a 1911 is not quite the same as the thumb position needs to disengage the safety when gripping, and a DA/SA with the hammer down will have a longer first pull. When you grip a 1911 in the holster, the thumb is on the safety. As the pistol is drawn and the grip tightens, the thumb presses down and the safety is disengaged. No separate movement is needed as there would be to thumb the hammer. Having to pull a hammer back (which is less safe on a 1911 than cocked and locked anyway) or rack a slide on a carry gun just creates more stuff to fumble with or forget in the heat of a life or death moment. Of course you can train to overcome this, but it seems like unnecessarily overcomplicating something I would prefer to be very simple. I don't expect to ever have to use my carry pistol, but if I ever did, I'm pretty sure my mind will be plenty occupied with more important details. "Accidental" discharges are almost always really negligent discharges. They had their finger on the trigger. I believe they also most often occur when holstering at drawing a handgun, which is why I personally won't appendix carry. Anyone can drop a pistol, especially under unknown or unfamiliar conditions, or while injured, or while in a numbing adrenaline rush, or even under the controlled conditions of a range. Saying, " practicing handling the pistol until you no longer drop it", is a bit like suggesting that someone practice driving until they no longer get into accidents so they no longer need to concern themselves with airbags or seatbelts. ^ This.
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Post by bluetrain on Jan 3, 2017 12:49:52 GMT
All my thinking and ways of doing things are based on my own experiences, not Elmer Keith's nor Skeeter Skelton nor Jeff Cooper. I haven't had nor are likely to have any of their experiences and none of them had the same experiences, either. I've dropped revolvers but never a pistol. I've never had an accidental discharge with an automatic pistol, either, and I'm 70 years old. I've also never had anyone bump into me at the range, either. Army procedures are based largely on having to deal with large numbers of young men who can be accident prone, unwilling to follow safety procedures and downright stupid, and not just with firearms.
There have been a few handguns with double-action triggers that had no hammer-drop safety. Now, that is a shortcoming in design, but they were highly thought of nevertheless.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Jan 3, 2017 14:50:31 GMT
I was assuming that accidents are always the fault of the user. I say that even though I once handled a gun, which was a .22 rifle, that would fire when you closed the bolt. I ignore automobile accidents because automobiles are not intended for killing. As for dropping the pistol, all I can say, is hold on tighter. How many people do you suppose are killed "accidentally" with guns each year? And for that matter, how many unintentional firearm discharges are caused by dropping the gun? Are you personally familiar with any? 14,000 - 16,000 people are injured each year in the US from accidental shootings. Of those, around 600 die per year. Nearly all modern pistols (made in the last couple decades at least) have drop safeties. The Gun Control Act of 1968 mandates drop safety tests for all manufacturers. I wouldn't expect to see many unintentional discharges caused by dropping unless the person handling the firearm has either intentionally or unintentionally subverted those safeties. I'm not personally familiar with anyone who has contracted polio, I guess there is no reason to guard against that either. I'm not really sure how what an inanimate object was intended to be used for has much to do with how it is accidentally used. My thoughts and actions are based on my experiences, coupled with the thoughts and experiences of those with more knowledge and experience in their specialized fields than I could ever hope to posses in a single lifetime. Anything else seems a bit short sighted to me, but of course everyone is free to live their life as they so choose. Bottom line to the OP- Carrying a firearm is dangerous. It's generally carried as a way to deal with threats to a person's safety or life. If we accept this, why would someone want to carry in a way which is at once more dangerous to self and less ready to deal with the threat that it's being carried for in the first place? Manually lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber creates the potential for an "accidental" discharge every time it's done. If it is done, it should be done with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction and really should be done with the thumb and first finger of the off hand rather than the thumb of the gripping hand. Why not just avoid this unnecessary process all together given that cocked and locked is a safer, easier place to get to and method to carry and is also more ready for use as well?
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Post by bluetrain on Jan 3, 2017 16:07:24 GMT
My wife's uncle died of polio.
It is interesting how attitudes change over the years. It's almost like there are fads and fashions concerning firearms, as much as anything else. Shooting competitions have a strong influence on firearms, too. At one time, the typical police handgun was a revolver in .38 special with a four, five or six-inch barrel. There were police pistol competitions and some departments gave additional pay for high scores on the range. That's when heavier barrel revolvers became popular. An extra heavy barrel gave a competitive edge but they were not generally carried on duty for very long. Another fad that came and went and was actually taught as a combat technique was to cock the revolver for most shots, as far as possible. That partly came from firearms competition. It resulted in the oversized hammer spurs as well as so-called target triggers. Trigger shoes were an essential addition to the well-informed shooter fifty years ago, the same way an oversized magazine release, slide release and safety were on a Colt .45 auto. Some even came with bumps on the grip safety to insure that it was depressed if your thumb was busy doing something else.
It was really only after Jeff Cooper promoted the .45 auto that it became as popular as it is today, over a hundred years after it was adopted by the army. Elmer Keith believe that for safety's sake, it had to be carried chamber empty, although he still recommended it. Meanwhile, the Texas Rangers were carrying their .45 autos cocked and locked in holsters without any thumb snap safety. Some who claim that cocked and locked is a perfectly fine way to carry a .45 but still like a strap across the end of the slide, just in case, I suppose.
I think it's okay, too, but with only one reservation: although the claim that lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber is a little risky (one is allowed to use both hands if you brought both of them with you), frequently loading and unloading a pistol also carries some risk as well. This is assuming you aren't carrying your gun 24 hours a day or storing it cocked and locked.
One gunwriter said he heard about someone who once had to chamber a round one-handed, which was not possible with his up to the minute ramp rear sights, so he immediately changed all his sights. One must keep up with the times.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jan 3, 2017 23:20:45 GMT
Personally I never use safeties for carrying. I don't trust them and find them fiddly. Esp. when the blood is pumping, it's a tiny little button or switch to have to feel for and push or flick. So I prefer decocking designs for semis such as the Sigs and wheelguns. I've also used Israeli carry in the past.
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Post by bluetrain on Jan 4, 2017 20:26:45 GMT
I personally prefer double-action only but few automatic pistols have that feature. I do have one that does but it has the curious additional feature of an external safety. One pistol I had at one time offered a choice between DAO and "traditional" double-action. That was the Browning BDM (if I remember the name correctly). It had a switch that you could change with a screwdriver or cartridge rim from one mode to the other. It was also exceptionally thin.
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