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Post by Richard Harris on Dec 4, 2016 0:03:17 GMT
Hi Folks, To begin, I am very new to this site and a novice collector. Actually, my interest is somewhat vicarious. A few years ago, I started a sword collection for my teenage son, who is an avid historian, and I regularly add to his collection on Xmas and his birthday. It has become a tradition and a way to bond. This collection is mainly for display, but we also want solid construction and realism. I would say historical accuracy and significance are our top priorities. Aesthetics is important, too. My budget is $100-$400, and we have been pleased with our purchases from companies such as Windlass and Cold Steel in the past. My current dilemma: my son is very interested in European history from the 15th Century to WWII. He is especially interested in the Prussian Empire from roughly 1700 to 1900. Unfortunately, swords from Prussia seem to be in very short supply. I have searched and searched to find only two available options, and I am not crazy about either of them. I will also mention a sword that does not appear to be available and other possible alternatives. I hope that some of you can comment on my concerns of the swords that I am considering, and/or give me some other options to consider. Nielo Prussian Dragoon Sword (M1734) - I have seen a couple of good reviews of some of the higher priced Nielo swords, but people do not seem to be pleased with his swords under $500. If you click on the link, you will see that the underside of the hilt is anything but polished. The Eagle-head pummel also appears to be really rough. I am also struggling to figure out what type of sword this is, how it was used, and so on. I saw the swordsmith himself call it a broadsword in a forum post, but it doesn't look like a broadsword to me. I found one original on auction, which is a broadsword, but surprisingly, the info provided is sparse. You will also notice how the the Eagle head on the this 200-year old original appears to be in better shape than the replica. So, in sum, I am concerned about the quality, accuracy, and significance of this sword. It is also pretty pricey for me and doesn't include scabbard. Universal Swords Prussian Cavalry Sword - I have even more problems with this one. For starters, I don't think it ever existed. When was it used? Who used it? ... I have not heard great things about the quality of Universal swords, and in terms of looks, I find most of their stuff to be a bit garish. The Prussian Eagle appears a number of hilts of originals, but not in this particular fashion. Some of these originals are true beauties, and I am astonished that accurate replicas are not being made. Cold Steel 1852 Prussian Sabre - I actually like this sword. It appears to be relatively historically accurate, and I trust the quality of Cold Steel. Unfortunately, CS no longer makes this sword, and you can't find a new one anywhere. A used one was actually sold on this site today! It sold in less than 24 hours, and I didn't see it in time. Ugh! Alternatives that I am considering: Cold Steel 1796 British Light Cavalry Sabre - The Prussians widely used this sword against Napoleon, and then made slight modifications to create the Blucher Sabre in 1811. This sword appears historically accurate, and the quality should be good. Universal Austrian Hassar Sabre - This is type of sword would have been used by the Prussians' archenemy -- the Austrians, so it scores well on significance. It is reasonably historically accurate, with the exception of the idiotic star things attached to the handle. I like the overall look, but Skallagrim reported on YouTube that this particular sword didn't hold up very well after relatively light use. Thanks for your help. -- Rich "We're Pirates!"
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pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Dec 4, 2016 1:03:13 GMT
They show up on eBay from time to time.
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Post by Croccifixio on Dec 4, 2016 2:20:59 GMT
Did you also consider antiques? At your price point, some antiques would be available. And they are so amazingly good looking, handling, and just really overall awe-inspiring - compared to repros, of course.
In any case, I'd wait for another 1852 on the classifieds they do pop up from time to time.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 4, 2016 5:04:49 GMT
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Dec 4, 2016 10:22:28 GMT
That CS is supposed to be an M1879. The etching is off, the pipe of the pipeback is square and the basket is too small and as with most all replica sabre blades, the taper is off too. Handling of the original, which is not very good compared to the M1852 because it is a pipeback, suffers even more because of the shortcommings of the replica. Other than that it looks quite like the real thing. Look here for an original: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/48324/imperial-prussian-m1879-cavalry-sabres. This model was the last of the line, but still could be considered a working sabre. Say after 1880, working sabres regress to Degen or very light models that could no longer be very effective in warfare. More for show. Guns had taken over the battlefield by then. The only way there is to get originals for a relative low price is to buy at auction houses, not Ebay and dealers. Problem is that one needs to know very well what is what and why not. Also on Ebay of course, but even more at the auction houses. Still, this could save more than 50 - 60% and with generic models like most produced in the 19th C. even more. For the rest of your suggestions: they are all replicas of ligit models, meaning ,,not phantasy''. The problem with replicas is that though they look quite the same as originals from a distance, one misses out for one on the technical side of building a good sabre. This involves much much more than a replica can ever offer. With this in mind, I think the two CS models are the best of your bunch. I would also like to draw your attention to this recent thread: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/49559/tried-new-sabers-weaponsedge . Where replica sabres are conserned the Princess comes very close to an original, is very well made and is a British labeled Prussian sabre par excellence. And as for garishness, the WE Chasseur a Cheval and many other brass hilted sabres improve a lot if one were to let the shiny brass oxidise somewhat. Especially the WE Chasseur one can have for a ridiculously low price at the moment at KOA. The Universal version is much higher priced and I garantee there is absolutely no difference in build quality, which is very good.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Dec 4, 2016 12:01:20 GMT
Hi Folks, My current dilemma: my son is very interested in European history from the 15th Century to WWII. He is especially interested in the Prussian Empire from roughly 1700 to 1900. Unfortunately, swords from Prussia seem to be in very short supply. I have searched and searched to find only two available options, and I am not crazy about either of them. I will also mention a sword that does not appear to be available and other possible alternatives. I hope that some of you can comment on my concerns of the swords that I am considering, and/or give me some other options to consider. Nielo Prussian Dragoon Sword (M1734) - I have seen a couple of good reviews of some of the higher priced Nielo swords, but people do not seem to be pleased with his swords under $500. If you click on the link, you will see that the underside of the hilt is anything but polished. The Eagle-head pummel also appears to be really rough. I am also struggling to figure out what type of sword this is, how it was used, and so on. I saw the swordsmith himself call it a broadsword in a forum post, but it doesn't look like a broadsword to me. I found one original on auction, which is a broadsword, but surprisingly, the info provided is sparse. You will also notice how the the Eagle head on the this 200-year old original appears to be in better shape than the replica. So, in sum, I am concerned about the quality, accuracy, and significance of this sword. It is also pretty pricey for me and doesn't include scabbard. Universal Swords Prussian Cavalry Sword - I have even more problems with this one. For starters, I don't think it ever existed. When was it used? Who used it? ... I have not heard great things about the quality of Universal swords, and in terms of looks, I find most of their stuff to be a bit garish. The Prussian Eagle appears a number of hilts of originals, but not in this particular fashion. Some of these originals are true beauties, and I am astonished that accurate replicas are not being made. Cold Steel 1852 Prussian Sabre - I actually like this sword. It appears to be relatively historically accurate, and I trust the quality of Cold Steel. Unfortunately, CS no longer makes this sword, and you can't find a new one anywhere. A used one was actually sold on this site today! It sold in less than 24 hours, and I didn't see it in time. Ugh! Alternatives that I am considering: Cold Steel 1796 British Light Cavalry Sabre - The Prussians widely used this sword against Napoleon, and then made slight modifications to create the Blucher Sabre in 1811. This sword appears historically accurate, and the quality should be good. Universal Austrian Hassar Sabre - This is type of sword would have been used by the Prussians' archenemy -- the Austrians, so it scores well on significance. It is reasonably historically accurate, with the exception of the idiotic star things attached to the handle. I like the overall look, but Skallagrim reported on YouTube that this particular sword didn't hold up very well after relatively light use. Thanks for your help. -- Rich "We're Pirates!"
My own experience is that reproduction models tend to cluster around a hand full of popularized historical events and you need to go to antiques fro the other 95%. If you want to fish for German swords I'd strongly recommend you introduce yourself to the Deutches Blankwaffen forum. It's all German, but the registering process is standard computer format. Once you register you can get into the forum threads and farm the lavish photo arrays available. ( The base gallery is useful, but for details you have to register). 1. Nielo: Don't do that. Reenactor swords with decent hilts and phoney blades. Expensive. 2. Universal Swords and Weapons Edge India are related family operations. Cousins. Make the same models. Their older models are over built. The Prussian 1732 Kurassier Regiment Pallasche is a real officers model. The enlisted is similar. The eliptical blade is correct and quite common in pre Napoleonic pallasche. A 3.3 lb sword is way over the hill. That said, this is a valid display piece. 3. The Prussian 1852/79 Uhlan covered. With some dilligent stalking on ebay you can probably find things at the top end of you budget you can buy. 4. CS 1796 A great standbuy for all sorts of history. It's a bit stodgy. Too much blade for a British saber, but probably not for a Prussian. 5. Andreas Hadik Presentation saber: The hilt and scabbard are quite good. The blade is too French. WEI and Universal makes their swords in clusters; appropriating a period blade for a number of swords which were in reality different. The older period you want a sword from, the more it will cost you. Shame you weren't hunting 9-6 years ago. They was a great leveling of collections when the recession hit. Lots of stuff to get. That seems to have ended. The weekly lists are shrinking. Don't get discouraged. Keep shopping. Rule number 4: what you really wanted always appears after you bought something else. Cheers
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 4, 2016 19:05:55 GMT
Hi Folks, My current dilemma: my son is very interested in European history from the 15th Century to WWII. He is especially interested in the Prussian Empire from roughly 1700 to 1900. Unfortunately, swords from Prussia seem to be in very short supply. I have searched and searched to find only two available options, and I am not crazy about either of them. I will also mention a sword that does not appear to be available and other possible alternatives. I hope that some of you can comment on my concerns of the swords that I am considering, and/or give me some other options to consider. Nielo Prussian Dragoon Sword (M1734) - I have seen a couple of good reviews of some of the higher priced Nielo swords, but people do not seem to be pleased with his swords under $500. If you click on the link, you will see that the underside of the hilt is anything but polished. The Eagle-head pummel also appears to be really rough. I am also struggling to figure out what type of sword this is, how it was used, and so on. I saw the swordsmith himself call it a broadsword in a forum post, but it doesn't look like a broadsword to me. I found one original on auction, which is a broadsword, but surprisingly, the info provided is sparse. You will also notice how the the Eagle head on the this 200-year old original appears to be in better shape than the replica. So, in sum, I am concerned about the quality, accuracy, and significance of this sword. It is also pretty pricey for me and doesn't include scabbard. Universal Swords Prussian Cavalry Sword - I have even more problems with this one. For starters, I don't think it ever existed. When was it used? Who used it? ... I have not heard great things about the quality of Universal swords, and in terms of looks, I find most of their stuff to be a bit garish. The Prussian Eagle appears a number of hilts of originals, but not in this particular fashion. Some of these originals are true beauties, and I am astonished that accurate replicas are not being made. Cold Steel 1852 Prussian Sabre - I actually like this sword. It appears to be relatively historically accurate, and I trust the quality of Cold Steel. Unfortunately, CS no longer makes this sword, and you can't find a new one anywhere. A used one was actually sold on this site today! It sold in less than 24 hours, and I didn't see it in time. Ugh! Alternatives that I am considering: Cold Steel 1796 British Light Cavalry Sabre - The Prussians widely used this sword against Napoleon, and then made slight modifications to create the Blucher Sabre in 1811. This sword appears historically accurate, and the quality should be good. Universal Austrian Hassar Sabre - This is type of sword would have been used by the Prussians' archenemy -- the Austrians, so it scores well on significance. It is reasonably historically accurate, with the exception of the idiotic star things attached to the handle. I like the overall look, but Skallagrim reported on YouTube that this particular sword didn't hold up very well after relatively light use. Thanks for your help. -- Rich "We're Pirates!"
Keep shopping. Rule number 4: what you really wanted always appears after you bought something else. Cheers This is perhaps one of the most true things ever said.
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Post by Richard Harris on Dec 5, 2016 2:30:45 GMT
Gentlemen, thanks for all the advice. I should have noted that I am looking for an Xmas present, so time is not on my side here. Here's what I believe that I have learned so far from you: 1) The CS British 1796 and CS Prussian 1852 (not available new, even at United Cold Steel) are both reasonably accurate historically and of good quality. Anyone disagree? 2) The US Princess of Wales and WE French Chasseur (also not available new) are two of the best sabre replicas in my price range and for the era of 1730-1880. With that said, my options are down to the CS 1796 and the US Princess. Given that the latter has no documented connection to Prussia, I am leaning toward the CS 1796 unless someone has some other ideas. Any suggestions??? One idea that just popped into my head was the CS Polish Sabre. Any thoughts on this sword?
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Post by Croccifixio on Dec 5, 2016 7:48:16 GMT
1 seems to be incorrect. As far as I know, the CS 1796 and Prussian 1852 are miles away from the originals. Handling is totally different, though not unwieldable.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 5, 2016 8:19:09 GMT
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Post by Dave Kelly on Dec 5, 2016 10:35:23 GMT
Gentlemen, thanks for all the advice. I should have noted that I am looking for an Xmas present, so time is not on my side here. Here's what I believe that I have learned so far from you: 1) The CS British 1796 and CS Prussian 1852 (not available new, even at United Cold Steel) are both reasonably accurate historically and of good quality. Anyone disagree? 2) The US Princess of Wales and WE French Chasseur (also not available new) are two of the best sabre replicas in my price range and for the era of 1730-1880. With that said, my options are down to the CS 1796 and the US Princess. Given that the latter has no documented connection to Prussia, I am leaning toward the CS 1796 unless someone has some other ideas. Any suggestions??? One idea that just popped into my head was the CS Polish Sabre. Any thoughts on this sword? For period and drawing a direct line to Prussian use the '96 is the best of breed. 2.5 lbs is on the heavy side, but there were 2.5 lb sabers issued by Gill and Osborn, and Germans tolerated more percussive swords than there neighbors. The PoWales is a really nice package, but it is well marked as a presentation sword for a British Regiment. That seems to defeat a desired object. Same for the Polish 17th Cent Sabre. Nice package; overweight in the same manner as the '96. Gave mine away as a graduation present for that reason. Also old swords have thumb rings, which may or may not be received well. That WWI degen isn't a bad deal for an antique. It won't depreciate either. Just being a devil advocate, something else came to mind: Don't know why this won't show url but if you go to Atlanta Cutlery's site ( Windlass adjunct in Atlanta ), and call up the revolutionary war saber. That IS a German Dragoon sabre 1750. The grip isn't right for a Prussian military sword, but the simple hilt and blades is valid. Maybe you will feel this is stingy, but I have one in my collection still. It is 2 lbs wt, can be sharpened and it is historically correct as a snarky horseman's saber. (Forgot about this one.) Cheers
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Dec 5, 2016 10:57:51 GMT
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Dec 5, 2016 11:54:09 GMT
Richard, I PM'ed you.
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Post by Richard Harris on Dec 7, 2016 5:04:30 GMT
I know you're all on the edge of your seats, waiting for me to make my pick. LOL
I actually spent the last few days looking at originals -- thank you for encouraging me to investigate that option. It has muddle the picture a bit because I have virtually no clue about what I am doing, but I have been receiving some help from a wise man. ;-)
With that said, in order to be not such a pain in the ass in the future, does anyone have any recommendations on books for new collectors? I would mostly be interested in European swords, especially Prussian, from 1600 to 1900.
Again, thank you for your kindness.
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Dec 7, 2016 5:18:58 GMT
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Post by bfoo2 on Dec 7, 2016 7:01:55 GMT
Welcome to the black hole of antique sword collecting Richard Harris ! You may be amazed at how quickly this hobby can rob you of your money (but hey pointy metal things are fun so who cares, right? ) I look forward to hearing about your purchase, whatever it may be
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Post by Richard Harris on Dec 7, 2016 23:35:23 GMT
Thanks, bfoo2. :-)
Not only is it fun, but it's an investment (in being prepared for the inevitable zombie apocalypse). LOL
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Post by Richard Harris on Dec 9, 2016 2:11:50 GMT
I settled on a 1896 Prussian Artillery Sabre, c 1906. I'll post some pics when I have the sword in hand. :-)
Thanks again to everyone who helped.
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Post by Croccifixio on Dec 9, 2016 2:47:49 GMT
Niiiiiice :)
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Post by gosse on Aug 11, 2020 4:21:12 GMT
I have a Prussian 1850 sabre for sale. Any interest/
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