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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 13:29:54 GMT
There are very very few medieval weapons good heat treated plate armour with appropriate padding won't stop. Remember that they even made plate that was pretty much safe against pistols and also muskets in a longer range... Agreed Luka. But then again, not only is ballistic protection not my goal but plate armor also was and is not the answer in today's world. It is just too bulky, and in a world where compactness seems to be the best virtue, that really outdated plate.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 13:30:53 GMT
Shields made from modern materials actually exist. The police use them for riot control. Modern helmets are also made from modern materials, general some kind of plastic. As a matter of fact, and I think I've mentioned this before, when helmets were being introduced for trench warfare in WWI, around 1915, the first patterns were based on helmets used during the middle ages and curiously, not on the later ones from the Renaissance. That was in spite of the fact that some metal helmets (don't know the materials) that were still in use by heavy cavalry (typically) at that time. The German spiked helmet was not metal and probably not intended to provide ballistic protection. I don't believe shields survived as battlefield equipment past the English Civil War period, if that late. I'm pretty sure they were still in general use, along with body armor, a hundred years earlier (the 1500s). Would the riot shield material protect against Arrows, swords and spears etc?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 13:40:46 GMT
The purpose to my armor is, again, not use in the battlefield. It is supposed to be a DIY, something to extend my Martial Arsenal and make for a project that turns out a very viable prototype for the more modern age. It's use is kind of fantasy I admit. But considering many 'prepped' things, my armor is supposedly a quick bulk-up and quick agility-up armor.
I actually don't believe in bullet resistance much. In best case scenario, you are shot from afar and the bullet lands into the vest and the assailant moves on. That's not likely to happen unless we are in battle or war. In daily life, if someone finds the excuse to shoot us, I would classify it into two categories: Personal and Crime. In personal, they want to kill you for something, a revenge thing. They will kill you at close range, and if they shoot you, they shoot multiple times. In crime, they threaten you and the chance to get shot is high, but there is actually a chance. That's where gun disarming might (and for me, has) worked. Having taken a shot at close range into a bullet proof vest, there still is a jarring force that you face, that is if you are shot in the torso (gun pointed at head mostly at close range). Two or three consecutive shots and the following shot after that will hurt you. The material gets damaged with each shot. Bullet proof or Bullet resistant vests are not a rinse and repeat thing. That's why soldiers are taught the art of utilizing and choosing cover extensively.
But sorry, I kinda over did why I don't care for that factor in my armor. We have Cap's shield for that no?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 17:53:18 GMT
Ok, I have decided something. I am thinking of chain mail (tightly made yet extremely flexible and of a more suitable material) covered by a Cut-Tex cut resistant cloth and slightly padded. This will be the covert design. Maybe I will add a leather and metal armor over it for a more strength added and traditional sort of armor.
The covert design will feel like a medium thick hoody? The armor will feel like an armor.
Some thoughts I had.
Feel free to comment nicely!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 17:59:28 GMT
Ok, before someone says something, yes I feel a bit confused as to the final design. And although my design will hold credit and is intended for use for whoever would like to copy it (when I get it done), the armor covering is more of a fantasy armor. Fantasy since that will definetly be only for occasions and training and not for EDC use.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Nov 13, 2016 18:27:19 GMT
Ok, I have decided something. I am thinking of chain mail (tightly made yet extremely flexible and of a more suitable material) covered by a Cut-Tex cut resistant cloth and slightly padded. This will be the covert design. Maybe I will add a leather and metal armor over it for a more strength added and traditional sort of armor. The covert design will feel like a medium thick hoody? The armor will feel like an armor. Some thoughts I had. Feel free to comment nicely! Mail is a good choice. When mail was commonly used the rings were smaller making it denser than what is commonly seen today. That will give your armour strength and at the same time add to the weight. And depending, on the heat exchange ability with your body, just thought that I’d through that out there for your consideration. You will need something under the mail to protect against the mail itself. Synthetic materials appear to retain the heat more so than natural materials. Whatever you use make sure that it can breath. Somewhere I think that I read that you wanted to make the armour yourself. Are you planning on making your mail? That could open another issue.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 13, 2016 18:46:04 GMT
Yup, consider weight and heat. My xxl mail shirt is dammed heavy. That's why I'm so fascinated of modern light materials.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 20:36:45 GMT
Thanks pgandy! You have actually given me a new perspective to think about. And I am considering getting it made. Ofcourse I have thought of slightly more stronger yet lighter and flexible components for the mail. Will have to research them before I throw ideas though. Also, one thing I want to discuss. I do not want to disclose the name or identity yet, but I have been receiving a few PMs regarding this thread. One person was genuinely interested and curious so I helped them out in what I had as a basis. However, the other seems like a random excuse to insult me based loosely on this thread. The reason for the Shoutbox I wrote. According to them, modern Motorcycle Armor and such was made by companies more experienced and the basllistic armor was more complex than 'my puny brain was capable of understanding'. I never said I am making an alternative. So, to clear everything out. I am planning on making an armor for self use and if others like to try WHEN I make it, they are most welcome. I have been in situations where I think such EDC armor was necessary and I just plan on explorsing an idea. And no, I am not trying to recreate history. Yes, my idea might come out as a real, 'battle-ready' costume armor to be worn in very certain occasions and times. But this is a forum about swords. We love 'Swords and edged Weapons!' Things that are not favored over new modern things. We know their importance and use, which gives us a benefit but many things are just theories. We live to research and the old military tactics are what have been refined to be used again and again. So yeah, my idea might be 'stupid' and 'worthless' but I am only exploring a possibility. Aren't we all? So, if anyone wants to PM me about this, don't. I will probably just block you or something. Definitely not going to hand you to an admin. Don't think you will be able to hide anyways. And for all the others here who have been helping, you guys rock. ✌️ Edit: Forgive mistakes. I was using only one eye😜
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 21:08:27 GMT
Yup, consider weight and heat. My xxl mail shirt is dammed heavy. That's why I'm so fascinated of modern light materials. PPSS seems to have a stab proof vest that is flexible. I asked about it but the reply is yet to come.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 13, 2016 21:30:35 GMT
I tried some research too, but it's not clear what kind of attack this stuff will stop. It's hard to differ between advertising and what is real.
The greatest danger for me seems to be a powerfull knive/dagger thrust. Good mail with padding will stop this, but it's heavy.
Do you think of your mass panic situation? I was in a - much much less dangerous - similar situation and remembering this I think of a stiff chest protection. Something like a linothorax.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 21:35:04 GMT
I tried some research too, but it's not clear what kind of attack this stuff will stop. It's hard to differ between advertising and what is real. The greatest danger for me seems to be a powerfull knive/dagger thrust. Good mail with padding will stop this, but it's heavy. Do you think of your mass panic situation? I was in a - much much less dangerous - similar situation and remembering this I think of a stiff chest protection. Something like a linothorax. That is one of the things I am researching. An armor that can be modded to fit situation, now that's an idea💡
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 13, 2016 21:42:00 GMT
Would the riot shield material protect against Arrows, swords and spears etc? In summary, swords yes, arrows no, spears maybe (javelins might go through quite well, and I wouldn't rule out a mighty thrust with a heavy spear). Riot shields are usually polycarbonate. Polycarbonate is good for riot shields because (a) it's very, very tough, and (b) it's transparent. About 3mm thickness will stop any ordinary blunt instrument swung or thrown by a human. That's also on the verge of stopping .22LR bullets; 6mm will stop them and other low-energy bullets. But polycarbonate is fairly soft, and is easy to cut. I don't think you would be cutting through 3mm polycarbonate in combat, but you will damage it (thin enough, and you'll cut through it in combat, but 3mm is IMO OK). However, 100J of arrow (367gr at 313fps) with a field point will go through 6mm polycarbonate. A broadhead would be even more effective; it will go through 1/2". The softness also limits the bullet-resistance. To stop the higher energy handgun bullets, the usual approach is to use a sandwich of something like 3mm polycarbnate, 6mm acrylic, 3mm polycarbonate. The acrylic much harder than the polycarbonate, and takes a lot more energy for the bullet to penetrate, as long as it doesn't shatter; the polycarbonate, which is much tougher than acrylic, holds the acrylic together. To stop rifle rounds, you want to go much thicker, and/or multiple layers, and/or use layers of glass in there. A thin polycarbonate-glass-polycarbonate laminate should stop arrows and spears.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 21:44:02 GMT
Would the riot shield material protect against Arrows, swords and spears etc? In summary, swords yes, arrows no, spears maybe (javelins might go through quite well, and I wouldn't rule out a mighty thrust with a heavy spear). Riot shields are usually polycarbonate. Polycarbonate is good for riot shields because (a) it's very, very tough, and (b) it's transparent. About 3mm thickness will stop any ordinary blunt instrument swung or thrown by a human. That's also on the verge of stopping .22LR bullets; 6mm will stop them and other low-energy bullets. But polycarbonate is fairly soft, and is easy to cut. I don't think you would be cutting through 3mm polycarbonate in combat, but you will damage it (thin enough, and you'll cut through it in combat, but 3mm is IMO OK). However, 100J of arrow (367gr at 313fps) with a field point will go through 6mm polycarbonate. A broadhead would be even more effective. The softness also limits the bullet-resistance. To stop the higher energy handgun bullets, the usual approach is to use a sandwich of something like 3mm polycarbnate, 6mm acrylic, 3mm polycarbonate. The acrylic much harder than the polycarbonate, and takes a lot more energy for the bullet to penetrate, as long as it doesn't shatter; the polycarbonate, which is much tougher than acrylic, holds the acrylic together. To stop rifle rounds, you want to go much thicker, and/or multiple layers, and/or use layers of glass in there. A thin polycarbonate-glass-polycarbonate laminate should stop arrows and spears. Thanks. That is really helpful for refining the search!
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Nov 13, 2016 22:28:33 GMT
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Post by howler on Nov 14, 2016 0:54:25 GMT
Ok, I have decided something. I am thinking of chain mail (tightly made yet extremely flexible and of a more suitable material) covered by a Cut-Tex cut resistant cloth and slightly padded. This will be the covert design. Maybe I will add a leather and metal armor over it for a more strength added and traditional sort of armor. The covert design will feel like a medium thick hoody? The armor will feel like an armor. Some thoughts I had. Feel free to comment nicely! Mail is a good choice. When mail was commonly used the rings were smaller making it denser than what is commonly seen today. That will give your armour strength and at the same time add to the weight. And depending, on the heat exchange ability with your body, just thought that I’d through that out there for your consideration. You will need something under the mail to protect against the mail itself. Synthetic materials appear to retain the heat more so than natural materials. Whatever you use make sure that it can breath. Somewhere I think that I read that you wanted to make the armour yourself. Are you planning on making your mail? That could open another issue. Hey, Gandy, do they make Titanium mail (or some other material) to deal with the weight? Expense/machining/demand are problematic, I suppose.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Nov 14, 2016 1:13:09 GMT
Mail is a good choice. When mail was commonly used the rings were smaller making it denser than what is commonly seen today. That will give your armour strength and at the same time add to the weight. And depending, on the heat exchange ability with your body, just thought that I’d through that out there for your consideration. You will need something under the mail to protect against the mail itself. Synthetic materials appear to retain the heat more so than natural materials. Whatever you use make sure that it can breath. Somewhere I think that I read that you wanted to make the armour yourself. Are you planning on making your mail? That could open another issue. Hey, Gandy, do they make Titanium mail (or some other material) to deal with the weight? Expense/machining/demand are problematic, I suppose. A riveted titanium hauberk will cost in the neighbourhood of 1,000-1300 USD depending on style. Other titanium accessories such as a mantel, coif, voiders, etc. are also available. What’s your pleasure?
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Post by bluetrain on Nov 14, 2016 1:19:48 GMT
How much do these different things weigh anyway, especially a mail shirt? One from Windlass on KofA is listed as 33 pounds (hip length, 3/4 sleeves, no hood and extra large size). Another one was about 27 pounds, large size. It was hard to compare plate armor because the coverage is different and it comes in parts. One breastplate was less than 10 pounds, another cuirass (front and back plates) was also under ten pounds. Overall, however, the pounds add up and you would have to become accustomed to wearing the stuff.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 14, 2016 2:05:35 GMT
Steel sheet, 1mm thick: 8kg per square metre Mail: Two pieces, Medieval European, in the British museum are 5.4kg and 8kg per square metre. Modern welded stainless mail tends to be 2.5-3.5kg/m^2, e.g., mailletec.com/ (but those MailleTec weights are for it stretched open, so make that up to about 5-7kg/m^2 if not stretched.
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Post by howler on Nov 14, 2016 2:08:34 GMT
How much do these different things weigh anyway, especially a mail shirt? One from Windlass on KofA is listed as 33 pounds (hip length, 3/4 sleeves, no hood and extra large size). Another one was about 27 pounds, large size. It was hard to compare plate armor because the coverage is different and it comes in parts. One breastplate was less than 10 pounds, another cuirass (front and back plates) was also under ten pounds. Overall, however, the pounds add up and you would have to become accustomed to wearing the stuff. Yup, hence my query of Gandy, as the weight issue would be a nice thing to address. I wonder how synthetic/polymer/ceramic advances would contribute to mail.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Nov 14, 2016 2:19:55 GMT
How much do these different things weigh anyway, especially a mail shirt? One from Windlass on KofA is listed as 33 pounds (hip length, 3/4 sleeves, no hood and extra large size). Another one was about 27 pounds, large size. It was hard to compare plate armor because the coverage is different and it comes in parts. One breastplate was less than 10 pounds, another cuirass (front and back plates) was also under ten pounds. Overall, however, the pounds add up and you would have to become accustomed to wearing the stuff. I am not sure about your question. If you are talking about across the board differences, then the differences would depend of ring diameter, gauge, and style, not to mention material. For instance I went to MRL’s page and found two shirts. One at 31½ lb. of 17 gauge rings of 3/16” dia. The other weighed 23 lb. of 16 ga rings of 7/16” dia. The heavy one was 31” long compared to 33” but had a 1” greater chest. Mail garments can vary considerably. As for plate armour the gauge has a big influence on weight, the design should not be forgotten. Much plate on the market is 18 ga., a little thin in my opinion for the important pieces such as a breast plate, but is more comfortable and more than sufficient for customing. My hat is 14 ga. reinforced with steel stripes. I have bracers of 16 ga. I have mentioned nothing of the heat retention which can be a problem in itself. I envy those living in more northern climates in that respect.
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