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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 17:57:03 GMT
Hey guys! (And gals) I have recently been researching armors and armor materials. I have to admit, I was going for a batman type wonder material. Still... I wish to know how effective was leather armor and metal armor. Also, about all other sorts that were used. Lastly, I want your opinion on a material that is highly cut resistant by Cut-Tex. Just thinking of an armor made by this. I don't know of the thrust protection but leather lined with this? I think we have potential here.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Nov 11, 2016 18:14:15 GMT
Metal armor was extremely effective, Matt Easton I believe has some good videos on the subject.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 18:32:20 GMT
Metal armor was extremely effective, Matt Easton I believe has some good videos on the subject. Thanks for the reply! Yes, metal armor was of course effective. I was thinking of more agility with somewhat same strength. Should be possible with new materials no?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 19:23:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 19:25:28 GMT
Also came across RingMesh. They seems to make EDC chain mail and have a good reputation too.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 19:35:38 GMT
My point in all this is to learn about historical armor more (things I might have missed through learning from the online resources and the many books I have read through libraries and loans etc). I want to find a suitable solution, maybe an armor that protects cuts and stabs? Again, the idea came to me from BatMan, so maybe not the most sound idea, but considering that armor can be made custom now-a-days, we could always get someone like Prince Armory or Elven Forge to create something extraordinary! Also, during what I have researched, metal is ofcourse the best, but the hindrances and weight makes modern use very much incompatible.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 19:38:30 GMT
Oh, and for disclosure purposes, I don't know any of the companies I mentioned, PPSS, prince armory, elven forge or any other that I mention later on. I shall mention my affiliation if there is any. This is just speculation on part of a modern day martial artist who still wants to evolve the old ways and equipment.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Nov 11, 2016 19:57:29 GMT
I got armour made of cut resistant cloth. It is made of a mix of synthetic material and steel wires. Tried cutting it with every blade I have and tried different sorts of edge grinds too, for cutting it. Hasn't gone through. Doesn't do semprini against thrusts (though my vest has a steel alloy plate to compensate for this) but it's great for cuts. I have yet to have a man strike me full strength with an axe but it's past my other tests special far
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 20:42:22 GMT
I got armour made of cut resistant cloth. It is made of a mix of synthetic material and steel wires. Tried cutting it with every blade I have and tried different sorts of edge grinds too, for cutting it. Hasn't gone through. Doesn't do poo against thrusts (though my vest has a steel alloy plate to compensate for this) but it's great for cuts. I have yet to have a man strike me full strength with an axe but it's past my other tests special far Good to know. Serrations are a problem since they combine thrusts with cuts in a way. Having leather over some of this stuff. Or getting something like the stab proof vest things from PPSS with this Cut-Tex cloth. Can make for ultimate armor.
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Post by pgandy on Nov 11, 2016 20:56:47 GMT
Also came across RingMesh. They seems to make EDC chain mail and have a good reputation too. I’ve been asking myself the same question for some years now have decided that nothing is fool proof, just look at the KIAs and WIA during that period. I would say first consider what you are most likely to come up against, then climate, and your physical condition. You can throw more in but they are the three that I consider primary and not necessarily in that order. All armour has its trade offs and in the end is a compromise. Certainly one is better off with it than without. Leather can be effective but 99% of what I see sold I’d rate as costume. I would not consider anything less than 13 oz or armour grade. I have a leather belt that is 9” wide and about ¾” thick at its thickest, but that part does not cover much area. In the front its about ½” thick and covers my abdomen. I think this give reasonable portion, especially when worn with other armour. I bought it as a kidney belt and is sold as a gladiator belt. I have bracers of leather which is, I’m guessing 7 oz that at places is 3 ply in places to which a added plate internally. I have some leather demi-gauntlets of 7-11 oz that I like and plan to add metal. As for RingMesh I got interested in that some years back and order two samples. At the time they had what they are now selling and another with smaller rings. I found both extremely comfortable and think it can be worn comfortably next to the skin. Both felt and acted like cloth. However, when I gave it a cut test I decided it wasn’t for me. I used a Condor Engineer Bolo. I did spend about 2 hour touching up the edge afterwards. It was still more than serviceable but needed attention. I find mail hard to beat. It offers very little, if any, heat build up an important factor here in the tropics. The heat saps my energy all too quickly and with the added years I have less tolerance to heat. Mail offers absolutely no protection against blunt trauma but will ward off lacerations better than anything I know except plate which to me presents many problems. It is also comfortable and at first seems heavy. But put in on and wear it around the house a day or two to get use to it and you won’t notice it. I do use limited plate though but do not base my armour on plate. I got a new piece just yesterday that I think has potential. I need to make a modification and then will post a review. Hopefully by next week.
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Post by bluetrain on Nov 11, 2016 21:12:12 GMT
There were armored vests or jerkins both in the West as well as in Japan. The designs were different but the basic idea was a quilted garment containing small plates. That's a poor description, however, and Japanese armor would probably not be described that way. There was also something called scale armor consisting of small overlapping plates of armor, presumably of metal. Such things were in use in Ancient Rome. The common characteristic of all of these types of armor, along with chain mail, what that they were all flexible, or supposedly so. But I've never worn one or even a modern-day flak jacket. They were all also less expensive than plate armor.
Today, I believe there is something promoted as shark-proof armor but chances are, sharks aren't aware of the fact. I believe there are also gloves sold intended for use when handling sharp objects.
Any defense can be overcome one way or another, provided the attacker knows something about it.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Nov 11, 2016 21:31:52 GMT
I got armour made of cut resistant cloth. It is made of a mix of synthetic material and steel wires. Tried cutting it with every blade I have and tried different sorts of edge grinds too, for cutting it. Hasn't gone through. Doesn't do poo against thrusts (though my vest has a steel alloy plate to compensate for this) but it's great for cuts. I have yet to have a man strike me full strength with an axe but it's past my other tests special far Good to know. Serrations are a problem since they combine thrusts with cuts in a way. Having leather over some of this stuff. Or getting something like the stab proof vest things from PPSS with this Cut-Tex cloth. Can make for ultimate armor. You know. I never thought about serrations. None of my blades are serrated so it never occurred to me Suddenly those goofy serrated katana seem pretty practical now I got lather bracers to wear over my cut resistant forarm guards and some gloves with metal knuckle guards. But now I'm thinking of other upgrades I could use. Considered getting plates for my vest since it can carry plates
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 11, 2016 22:26:47 GMT
I wish to know how effective was leather armor and metal armor. Also, about all other sorts that were used. Generally, the principle is make it thick enough, it works. For some armours, this means making the individual plates thick enough. For others, it means having enough layers. For mail, it can mean having the individual rings made of thick enough wire, or having more rings (i.e., smaller diametre rings). The main materials used historically were metal, rawhide, and textiles. Metal could be in the form of large plates, linked rings (mail), or overlapping small plates (scale, lamellar, brigandine). Rawhide could be used as large plates or overlapping small plates. Stand-alone textile armours are often large stiff "plates" - once you sew 30 layers of cloth together, it isn't like a shirt or light jacket anymore. Textile armour intended to be a layer above or below mail/plate are thinner and more flexible. For textile armour, note that 22 layers of modern heavyweight 360gsm linen weighs about the same as 1mm steel, for the same area. You want about 30 layers for similar protection, so steel plate is lighter than a gambeson for a given level of protection. Leather (as opposed to rawhide) armour isn't common. The most common example would be the buff coat (oil-tanned leather). Other materials that were used as armour included wood (no, not in Japanese armour as one often sees), seeds, horn, teeth, bones, shells (all of these usually as scales attached to a backing), coconut fibre rope (or you could consider this as just another textile armour), and sand (used as a glued-on facing on rawhide). It's easy to stop cuts. Historical armour is usually designed to stop arrows and thrusting weapons like spears. Once it keeps them out, it's also cut-proof. If you want an improved modern armour, composite plates, possibly ceramic-metal-plastic or ceramic-plastic sandwiches, can deliver better protection than steel (a hard face to stop an edge or point from penetrating, and a resilient backing to stop the hard face from breaking). Metal-reinforced textiles can work well. Spring-tempered welded mail should provide excellent protection against cuts and thrusts.
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Post by pgandy on Nov 11, 2016 22:32:34 GMT
I got thinking about this. It’s the most effective that I have. Saying that I’ll say it’s a bit warm on a hot day and not the easiest to put on, but works well.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 11, 2016 23:25:45 GMT
Don't forget some stiffness against blunt force. A lamellar/brigantine/coat of plates construction with lighter modern materials would be a tradeoff if you don't want to look like a star wars stormtrooper.
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Post by bluetrain on Nov 12, 2016 0:26:51 GMT
I was going to mention wood armor also but someone beat me to it. The only instance I know of, however, were, I think, American Indians of the Northwest. It sounds clumsy, to be sure, but I don't think any other native Americans, including the Incas, used anything similar. But they all used shields.
One of the characteristics of Japanese armor was it's flexibility. It's a little hard to describe without doing research and stealing someone else's words. It was basically small plates laced together, although the completed suit really looks like several flat plates laced together. But the design of a Japanese suit of armor also reflects their fighting styles, which required a lot of flexibility, not that Western armors over the years weren't flexible. I don't recall seeing an illustration of any Japanese shields.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 12, 2016 0:51:16 GMT
I was going to mention wood armor also but someone beat me to it. The only instance I know of, however, were, I think, American Indians of the Northwest. It sounds clumsy, to be sure, but I don't think any other native Americans, including the Incas, used anything similar. There were three main kinds of American wooden armour: "rod armour" for the torso, consisting of vertical rods/slats tied together, "slat armour", which was basically scale or brigandine, usually for the torso, and wooden helmets (1 piece skull protector, and sometimes separate neck and/or face protectors - see, e.g., heatherpringle.com/2010/01/15/how-early-wooden-armor-defeated-russian-firearms/ and middenmurk.blogspot.com.au/2015/09/body-armour.html (on a dummy; plenty of other interesting armour shown there too)). There are SE Asian wooden scale armours (e.g., as used by the Toraja), I recall seeing a SW Chinese bamboo/wood lamellar armour (can't find the picture now), and Chinese and Taiwanese bamboo and rattan helmets.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 12, 2016 0:53:23 GMT
There were very different kind of japanese armour, but you mean lamellar, I think. The flexibility of this kind of armor was due to many gaps on the inside, a bit like small shields only on the outside (against arrows). Samurai were mounted archers primary, so no shield, in later infantry battles there were shields afaik. With light (!) modern materials you can combine a stiffer outside with a cut resistant inner side and close gaps against thrusting.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2016 6:07:24 GMT
Overwhelming responses! Thanks everyone, and loved the video again pgandy. Yes, most of those facts are what I came across during my research. However, my main interest lies in the Asian armor. For example, I have examples of armor that were leather, thick and mostly plated like in Japanese armor. They are ok cut resistant. I was thinking that if a material that is level 5 cut resistant, lined in the back with the mail or a stab proof vest, and padding ofcourse, should make for a pretty updated and versatile yet agile armor. The reason I am not interested in ceramic or other such brittle hard material is again agility and flexibility, with somewhat singularity in use.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 12, 2016 9:49:46 GMT
Much depends on construction, f.e. steel is a hard and not very flexible material but mail is very flexible.
Compared to thick leather and steel modern materials reduce weight and the need for aditional padded armor, so you have a less problem with overheating.
Against what kind of weapons/attacks your armor should protect you?
Against a knive or dagger a cut resistant material is ok, but against projectiles (bullet, arrow, spear) you have a problem and not only with piercing but also with the impact force.
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