Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 20, 2016 20:00:48 GMT
I'm Canadian lol. It's very difficult to get a gun here and the registration is heavy. But I never intended to use a gun for defence anyway, as that's not allowed in Canada. Defence in itself is barely allowed here. Which is why I'm joining the army. Not that I believe in any causes, I mostly just wanna get practiced up for war and such. Secure a good position before everyone is drafted But yea, not a politics thread. Thanks to all the recommendations on the other hand, I have a much better idea what kind of revolver I would like to get.
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 20, 2016 20:13:48 GMT
Okay, I won't discuss politics if no one else does.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Oct 20, 2016 20:22:12 GMT
Guys better ease it up are you all going to get warming.
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Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 24, 2016 2:15:33 GMT
Really? I'm not allowed to say Donald trump is orange? That has nothing to do with politics
I just noticed a post of mine being deleted.
Not like it's a political discussion to discuss how the dude doesn't know when tanning becomes too much
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2016 7:10:30 GMT
Really? I'm not allowed to say Donald trump is orange? That has nothing to do with politics I just noticed a post of mine being deleted. Not like it's a political discussion to discuss how the dude doesn't know when tanning becomes too much Ok that's funny đ ! Though we should ease on the political anything now....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2016 7:15:06 GMT
I deleted my own two posts which I believe started this?
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 24, 2016 11:02:23 GMT
If I could address the original question without stepping on any fragile rules, I'd like to add a couple of thoughts. They may have been mentioned before but I repeat myself a lot anyway.
Although revolvers have their advantages, autos do not have any particularly severe disadvantages and in fact, have a few good points.
First off, provided you stick with the better makes of handguns, parts breakage is not going to be a problem. Some brands which were otherwise good designs that sometimes offered features not yet found on other handguns, had bad reputations for breaking. I had a few Star automatics and each one had something break or come loose sooner or later. Nothing happened that caused the pistol to become nonfunctional, however. But new Stars haven't been available for quite a while now. But also avoid very old handguns for the same reason. Otherwise, revolvers actually have more parts and are somewhat more complicated, with exceptions, than automatic pistols. Some Ruger automatics had a surprisingly large number of parts, though, especially springs, but you never hear of them having problems.
Although there are more powerful cartridges generally available in revolvers, there are certainly powerful cartridges available in automatic pistols. There's even a few models in .44 magnum, if you don't mind the weight and can afford it. Under certain conditions an automatic pistol is a little easier to carry because they are flatter. But some models have gotten a little bulky.
Another factor is what I call ammunition management. You can carry revolver cartridges in speedloaders but they're a little clumsy. But automatics use those very convenient removable magazines in most cases, although the first pistol I ever owned, in 1966 I think it was, used clips. But it was too old to be considered here. It's true that an automatic throws the empty cases everywhere, including down your shirt front (that's why you should always wear a tie), but reloading is not practical under survival conditions.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 24, 2016 17:00:27 GMT
I suppose if one had extra magazines pre-loaded he would be safe from most dangerous inconveniences. I mean, unless he's foolishly fighting a platoon on his own
So a .44 magnum eh? And automatics don't jam often do they?
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 24, 2016 17:42:27 GMT
No, of course not. If they did, do you suppose practically every army in the world would have been using them for the last hundred years? Provided you don't tinker with the pistol and use factory fresh ammunition and keep everything clean, they will actually work reliably. Same with long guns.
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Post by howler on Oct 24, 2016 21:26:50 GMT
If I could address the original question without stepping on any fragile rules, I'd like to add a couple of thoughts. They may have been mentioned before but I repeat myself a lot anyway. Although revolvers have their advantages, autos do not have any particularly severe disadvantages and in fact, have a few good points. First off, provided you stick with the better makes of handguns, parts breakage is not going to be a problem. Some brands which were otherwise good designs that sometimes offered features not yet found on other handguns, had bad reputations for breaking. I had a few Star automatics and each one had something break or come loose sooner or later. Nothing happened that caused the pistol to become nonfunctional, however. But new Stars haven't been available for quite a while now. But also avoid very old handguns for the same reason. Otherwise, revolvers actually have more parts and are somewhat more complicated, with exceptions, than automatic pistols. Some Ruger automatics had a surprisingly large number of parts, though, especially springs, but you never hear of them having problems. Although there are more powerful cartridges generally available in revolvers, there are certainly powerful cartridges available in automatic pistols. There's even a few models in .44 magnum, if you don't mind the weight and can afford it. Under certain conditions an automatic pistol is a little easier to carry because they are flatter. But some models have gotten a little bulky. Another factor is what I call ammunition management. You can carry revolver cartridges in speedloaders but they're a little clumsy. But automatics use those very convenient removable magazines in most cases, although the first pistol I ever owned, in 1966 I think it was, used clips. But it was too old to be considered here. It's true that an automatic throws the empty cases everywhere, including down your shirt front (that's why you should always wear a tie), but reloading is not practical under survival conditions. If one is talking about a handgun for dangerous animals, the revolver being able to handle more powerful rounds, with (generally) more reliability, would have to get the nod over semiauto (particularly when talking Brown Bear). Another thing to consider is the potential for a dud round in the chamber. In a semi, you have to go through a protocol to handle dummy rounds, with a revolver you simply pull the trigger again...a nice thing when a Grizz is bearing down on ya. Some revolvers are cut for full moon clips, like my 8-shot S&W .357 (do you REALLY need more than 8 shots in the woods, anyway). Still, a Glock (10mm, .40, 45) would certainly cut the mustard as a solid choice. I was going to say, Blue, that militaries (and to lesser degree, police) go for semi because they fight in GROUPS, so jamming is not as much of an issue, and suppression (laying down a high rate of fire) is important in tactical application.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 24, 2016 21:59:12 GMT
If I could address the original question without stepping on any fragile rules, I'd like to add a couple of thoughts. They may have been mentioned before but I repeat myself a lot anyway. Although revolvers have their advantages, autos do not have any particularly severe disadvantages and in fact, have a few good points. First off, provided you stick with the better makes of handguns, parts breakage is not going to be a problem. Some brands which were otherwise good designs that sometimes offered features not yet found on other handguns, had bad reputations for breaking. I had a few Star automatics and each one had something break or come loose sooner or later. Nothing happened that caused the pistol to become nonfunctional, however. But new Stars haven't been available for quite a while now. But also avoid very old handguns for the same reason. Otherwise, revolvers actually have more parts and are somewhat more complicated, with exceptions, than automatic pistols. Some Ruger automatics had a surprisingly large number of parts, though, especially springs, but you never hear of them having problems. Although there are more powerful cartridges generally available in revolvers, there are certainly powerful cartridges available in automatic pistols. There's even a few models in .44 magnum, if you don't mind the weight and can afford it. Under certain conditions an automatic pistol is a little easier to carry because they are flatter. But some models have gotten a little bulky. Another factor is what I call ammunition management. You can carry revolver cartridges in speedloaders but they're a little clumsy. But automatics use those very convenient removable magazines in most cases, although the first pistol I ever owned, in 1966 I think it was, used clips. But it was too old to be considered here. It's true that an automatic throws the empty cases everywhere, including down your shirt front (that's why you should always wear a tie), but reloading is not practical under survival conditions. If one is talking about a handgun for dangerous animals, the revolver being able to handle more powerful rounds, with (generally) more reliability, would have to get the nod over semiauto (particularly when talking Brown Bear). Another thing to consider is the potential for a dud round in the chamber. In a semi, you have to go through a protocol to handle dummy rounds, with a revolver you simply pull the trigger again...a nice thing when a Grizz is bearing down on ya. Some revolvers are cut for full moon clips, like my 8-shot S&W .357 (do you REALLY need more than 8 shots in the woods, anyway). Still, a Glock (10mm, .40, 45) would certainly cut the mustard as a solid choice. I was going to say, Blue, that militaries (and to lesser degree, police) go for semi because they fight in GROUPS, so jamming is not as much of an issue, and suppression (laying down a high rate of fire) is important in tactical application. Excellent points. I am sold on a revolver then. They may not hold as much rounds per reload but that tiny bit of extra reliability is everything for me. If I could afford it, I would have one of each, along with a shot gun or rifle, and like I also mentioned, I intend to get another gun off someone else if the world goes to sh*t. Assuming I can't get my own. Walkig through a city with a gun hanging on your back is heat bag as hell, but a good revolver can be hidden under the jacket. Also, I wouldn't plan on any long range gun fights and would avoid such conflicts. I prefer walls and obstacles if I got to deal with conflict. An area where a revolver would do just fine
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 24, 2016 23:13:36 GMT
Has anyone ever had a failure to fire with a correctly maintained (meaning clean) automatic pistol with new factory ammunition? I never have in fifty years of shooting. And even so, applying immediate action with a pistol should take no more than two seconds. So basically, I maintain that automatic pistols are sufficiently reliable. While the military may fight in groups (but rarely with handguns), the police often do. A handgun is no good for suppressive fire. That's what machine guns are for.
As for defending yourself from a brown bear with a handgun, I suppose it's possible but it's not really recommended.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 24, 2016 23:58:50 GMT
Has anyone ever had a failure to fire with a correctly maintained (meaning clean) automatic pistol with new factory ammunition? I never have in fifty years of shooting. And even so, applying immediate action with a pistol should take no more than two seconds. So basically, I maintain that automatic pistols are sufficiently reliable. While the military may fight in groups (but rarely with handguns), the police often do. A handgun is no good for suppressive fire. That's what machine guns are for. As for defending yourself from a brown bear with a handgun, I suppose it's possible but it's not really recommended. I've never owned a hand gun. I've had a .300 rifle from WW1 before but that's nothing like a hand gun. Anyway, what if my only choice was dirty old bullets and I wasn't any good at maintaining? I'm sure this would change with military experience, as I'm applying to get into weapon mechanics for this exact reason, but as I am I feel like I would do more damage than good if I attempted disassembly
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Post by Lord Cobol on Oct 25, 2016 0:39:55 GMT
The best comparison of reliability I have seen, from someone who claims to know more than I claim to know, is that (among modern models from good companies) semi-autos withstand use & abuse better than revolvers, but revolvers tolerate neglect better. Autos need more cleaning & oiling, revolvers are a better choice if may leave it sitting around untouched for years.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 25, 2016 1:35:52 GMT
The best comparison of reliability I have seen, from someone who claims to know more than I claim to know, is that (among modern models from good companies) semi-autos withstand use & abuse better than revolvers, but revolvers tolerate neglect better. Autos need more cleaning & oiling, revolvers are a better choice if may leave it sitting around untouched for years. That's good information to have. Once again it tells me to go with a revolver. I neglect my stuff a lot cause I always end up living in random places with random people so I keep my weapons and armour hidden. My poor knife resistant vest is jammed up in a back pack and my poor swords are crammed together in a bass guitar back pack đ
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Post by howler on Oct 25, 2016 3:43:32 GMT
Has anyone ever had a failure to fire with a correctly maintained (meaning clean) automatic pistol with new factory ammunition? I never have in fifty years of shooting. And even so, applying immediate action with a pistol should take no more than two seconds. So basically, I maintain that automatic pistols are sufficiently reliable. While the military may fight in groups (but rarely with handguns), the police often do. A handgun is no good for suppressive fire. That's what machine guns are for. As for defending yourself from a brown bear with a handgun, I suppose it's possible but it's not really recommended. No doubt a Glock with good ammo would be pretty reliable, but not as reliable as the revolver, which does not have a separate magazine, slide, and springs. In a SHTF world, you may not be able to have the best ammo available, and that two second "jam drill" could take ALOT more time under life or death pressure, considering the revolver takes maybe a third of a second to simply pull the trigger again. The suppressive fire thing I have heard (not being a soldier or officer myself), so I would only say that police and military often have each others backs, and fight in groups. No question rifle is KING...but ya gotta carry the sucker, no, which is why you would probably have a 44mag or better on your chest rig if you were waist deep in a river in Alaska, trying to hook a salmon.
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Post by howler on Oct 25, 2016 3:52:10 GMT
The best comparison of reliability I have seen, from someone who claims to know more than I claim to know, is that (among modern models from good companies) semi-autos withstand use & abuse better than revolvers, but revolvers tolerate neglect better. Autos need more cleaning & oiling, revolvers are a better choice if may leave it sitting around untouched for years. And lets not forget the ability to deal with "crappy ammo" that the revolver has over the semi.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 25, 2016 4:11:42 GMT
Howler, you are a like minded individual I would be happy to have on my team. Same with Asad. Not saying the only guys, but I know we would get along and have similar notions of dealing with situations
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Post by howler on Oct 25, 2016 6:21:18 GMT
Howler, you are a like minded individual I would be happy to have on my team. Same with Asad. Not saying the only guys, but I know we would get along and have similar notions of dealing with situations Semi reliability has come quite far, and Blue is quite right in that you really wouldn't have a problem with it if your even remotely competent at keeping it in good shape, and not having it "non-vetted" (meaning you break it in and know your ammunition). I'm mainly talking woods gun (with the concept of a Brown Bear), so there really is no reason NOT to have a revolver (with the power, and even more reliability). So many on this forum are far better (having lived and used equipment), while I'm just interested in the stuff, theoretical, that's all, so I learn a lot of real world application when they speak. Don't forget, semiauto's can be smooth shooting (less recoil), accurate, and have high capacity if you desire such, and more people carry them and have them for home defense than revolvers (I believe, so don't quote me). Also, I'm no fan of snub-nose (2"brl. or under) guns, as they rob velocity and sight radius, though see their purpose as belly guns. I'm a middle-aged, man...Blue is a (lets say older) middle aged man ...an your maybe a young'un (under 30...damn you), so it is an interesting demographic conversation.
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 25, 2016 10:53:14 GMT
I don't think poor ammunition should be a worry. If you don't have enough of your own already, then stock up. Practically all factory ammunition is good or good enough, although it will be easy enough to find someone who says otherwise, especially if they happen to be selling it. In your bleak future scenario, you shouldn't count of ever finding more ammunition. In any event, assuming you aren't expecting to be in combat (in which case you won't have nearly enough), a few hundred rounds of pistol ammunition should be enough. I still have ammunition I bought when I was in college--at $5 a box!
If you live somewhere there are brown bears, you should probably already have a rifle or shotgun.
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