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Post by fatebinder on Aug 29, 2016 2:06:14 GMT
Hey Gang, trying to get some opinions here. Do you think the Honshu Tac Wak Bends (takes a set) too easily?
I have owned one for a while, and it's not my first sword by a long shot. I'm used to the occasional bent Katana needing a little TLC to bend it back to true. But usually the only time that happens to me is either during destruction testing, OR bad technique (happens very little these days LOL).
In other words, I have to be abusing the sword substantially or using power cuts through difficult targets and using bad form. I am aware that Katana bend, and are not typically spring tempered.
HOWEVER -
The Honshu Tac Wak I own, takes a NOTICEABLE set after very modest slapping to the face of the blade on any surface, including my knee.
That is, I don't have to bear down on it with two hands or put it in a vice, or even bend it beyond a certain point before it takes a set.
I can literally make it take a set from 3-4 slaps to the flat of the blade on me knee. Or very MILD lateral pressure. I don't mean a LITTLE bend either, we're talking 10 degree set.
I have cheaper Musashi Katana that don't take a set anywhere NEAR that easily.
So what do you guys think? Even for a 140$ sword is that too easy a set? Some Sword styles make use of the Shinogi-ji defensively, I feel like if I tried any of those techniques with this, my sword would be a bent up "W" shape in no time.
Would you risk the use of a sword that took a set that easily in a (Lets be honest - fantasy) tactical scenario?
It's a real bummer too, because overall I like the balance and design, I hate to retire it completely... But a sword that bends this easily seems wrong to me.
Thoughts? Opinions? corrections?
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 29, 2016 4:54:33 GMT
I think you can trust your experience, there is something wrong with it, don't know if this could be dangerous. I don't own a honshu tactical for myself, but a hanwei tac kat, which is springy and flexible nearly like my euros. From a "tactical" i expect a light bo-hi TH springy blade, not a heavy niku beater like my raptor shinogi. On the other side tac waks seem often be used for "samurai gardening service" and should stand this better for their shorter blade . I browsed a few customers replies, one said that one of his two honshus arrived bend slightly and he thought, they would be on the thin side and perhaps better no-hi. They are advertized as 1060 steel, no word about DH as far as i could see. In a "tactical" sense bend is better than broken in battle, but not so easily set.
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Post by MOK on Aug 29, 2016 4:57:32 GMT
Way too big a set, way too easily! Sounds like it's either broken or hasn't been heat treated at all. I wouldn't use a sword like that for anything but display.
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Post by fatebinder on Aug 30, 2016 1:40:17 GMT
Thanks for the input guys, yeah, my gut says this waster is relegated to Kata and water bottles from now on.
I have a feeling it won't "break" any time soon, but well...
I wouldn't Keep my glock oiled and ready to rock if I had to worry about the slide bending any time I rack it wrong... So this thing is going on the "loaner" rack for folks who want something to cut bottles with or do forms. NO TATAMI!
In the mean time, I Put in an order for a nice spring tempered 9260 Cheness Tenchi Ko Katana.
I'll make it a project blade and maybe do a custom "Tactical" tsuka using either less element sensitive components, or I'll epoxy the Tsuka Ito similar to the hisshou by CRKT.
Too bad about the Honshu.
I don't know if all their blades are like this, but judging by the Amazon reviews and other reviews, it seems to be a trend.
I own plenty of Non spring steel blades that wouldn't take a set this easy... I should shoot a video of just how easy it is to make it take a set. Literally tapping it on your knee about as hard as you would to play rock paper scissors is enough.
Thanks again!
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Post by MOK on Aug 30, 2016 9:12:16 GMT
In that case I suspect it's actually broken. Does it always bend at the same point?
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Post by fatebinder on Aug 31, 2016 1:32:11 GMT
In that case I suspect it's actually broken. Does it always bend at the same point? No, I can cause a bend anywhere down it's length just by tapping it with slight to modest force. I actually tested this to see if I had a bad temper or something, you know to see if it had weak spot in a blade (just as you suggest). I was going a minor touch up on the edge with a strop when I noticed the deformation happen. I am fairly certain it was straight until I took a strop to it. This requires a little bit of pressure of course, and after about 15 minutes I was finished, and it was hair popping sharp. I was about to return it to the saya when I noticed the bend (I could actually feel it before I saw it). So I eyeballed it, I wear thick glasses so to be sure I table tested it, and it failed both tests. I figured "Hey it's a cheap beater sword, I'll just bend it back... let me see how easy it will be before I bust out my vice/plank setup." I put it over my knee, and applied gradual pressure. Sure enough it bent further the wrong way... Now, again, I normally don't freak over a bent blade, especially on a non spring temper 10XX steel. (this one is 1060). I know they can take hundreds of "small" bends before they risk breaking. But this was very troubling... I wasn't applying much pressure. I know I have gorilla level strength, but I wasn't putting much pressure on it at all. So I eyeballed it again, and straightened it. Realizing this was absurd, I whacked it on my thigh in a different spot, it took a 10 degree bend. I took the front 3rd near the Kissaki and put on a pair of work gloves and put about 1/4 the pressure I would expect to need to exert on it to bend it, and it bent and set... It is still totally safe for light cutting practice and kata, so I did a few to be sure, and now it's my young sons learner sword. He won't abuse it and loves it. But it's really annoying to me. I could of course spend big bucks for a custom blade, but I decided to go with Cheness and their 9260 Tenchi Ko Katana, I'll probably remount it to be more tactical. But it's disapointing. I have a feeling all their Tac Kats are like this... It's possible I got a dud, but that level of dud seems absurd. I have 130$ 1060 Musashi takeo that aren't much thicker that I couldn't bend enough to set without a lot more force. Certainly not from stropping...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2016 4:37:32 GMT
the Honshu stuff sucks...this thing isnt even full-tang! Quite dangerous grip construction...review flys around here somewhere!
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Aug 31, 2016 5:18:14 GMT
That sounds like the temper was either botched badly or not done at all. 1060 is a good, tough steel when done even mostly right.
I got to use a nearby members Tenchi ko-katana, and I loved it to death. Cheness has lost a lot of their luster in the past few years, but that Tenchi ko-katana was all kinds of right. It's odd, the fittings are not to my taste, I wish the ito alternated, fit and finish wasn't 100%, but it was so much fun that none of that mattered when I was using it.
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Post by MOK on Aug 31, 2016 7:16:14 GMT
Yeah, sounds like it somehow either skipped hardening, or was waaaaaaayyyyyy overheated during tempering. Or just skipped the whole process altogether. Not really sure how any of those would happen, nor why it wasn't caught in QC...
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Post by fatebinder on Sept 1, 2016 3:45:56 GMT
"Full tang"
Don't be offended... But I don't like that term, because REAL swords are not always full tang, in fact, most were not. Certainly not in the sense the current modern market demands.
Traditional Katana Nakago often only went about one hand length into the Tsuka! maybe an inch or two more. Surprisingly the point of failure was rarely the tang or tsuka.
Of course, they didn't split logs with their swords either. Much of todays Full tang demand comes from the piss poor quality of the 80s and early 90s, where tangs were literally just long threaded rods welded or even soldered on to a cheap flimsy blade. Or overhard 440 blades that were overbuilt to take more abuse.
If you take apart the Honshu tac wak, and look at the Nakago, yes it is STUPID short, it barely goes the length of your hand. Then again, take apart a traditional wakizashi. Surprise surprise, the Nakago is about the same! The fact they welded the Nakago onto filler steel actually makes it potentially stronger than it would ever need to be. But only if the weld is good, and not a cheap solder.
The Honshu full tang is (from a design perspective) functional because it is welded to the filler steel in such a way that normal wear and tear should not be an issue... ASSUMING THE WELD IS STRONG. LOL so of course, since I can't fully trust the heat treat/temper... I wonder about that weld now...
Like I said, it's being relegates to super SOFT targets.
As for the Ko-Katana
I'm mainly buying it for it's blade. I will PROBABLY either be totally redoing the Tsuka and Tsuba
At a minimum I will be lacquering the Ito (before anyone yelps, this is actually something samurai had done for their battle swords all the time) This is meant to be a tactical and on the utilitarian side blade, so I plan on at the very MINIMUM clear or black lacquering the Ito to make it more like the Hisshou.
I have to test if the black lacquer can be done in a way that looks good, I have seen pictures from people who wanted an all black Tsuka, and painted the whole thing black without re-wrapping and the pictures look remarkably good, Not at ALL traditional and I'd never do it on one of my prized blades, but for a deep woods tactical beater? You betcha!).
OR completely re-wrapping it: Spray painting the Samegawa black, doing a Katate-Maki without Menuki with black ito, and then clear Lacquer the whole affair till it feels stiff. Maybe wire brush the ito if it feels too hard.
I will then be refinishing the Saya, likely a flat black with the slightest sand texture sanded down and coated flat black again maybe just to eliminate any excess glinting.
the Tsuba is probably going to be removed and I'll make one that provides a tiny bit of finger protection, but is minimal almost Hamidashi/Aikuchi style So the whole thing is ultra low profile, probably very much like the Tac Wak from Honshu, but in blued steel custom fit and shimmed for minimal rattle not brass.
Big plans...
Just hope it gets here soon. I hate the lack of tracking. All my packages get delivered to my in laws house next door, so it could show up, get taken inside, and not be given to me for days... But, there is nothing like the anticipation of waiting for a sword in the mail. Even a cheap beater.
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Post by fatebinder on Sept 1, 2016 3:57:43 GMT
PS thanks again everyone.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 3:59:10 GMT
"Full tang" I don't like that term, because REAL swords are not always full tang, in fact, most were not. Errh...i beg your pardon??? Thats kinda...."strange" statement...
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Post by fatebinder on Sept 1, 2016 4:06:29 GMT
Edited my reply. Check it out
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Post by fatebinder on Sept 1, 2016 4:09:34 GMT
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Post by fatebinder on Sept 1, 2016 4:15:20 GMT
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 1, 2016 4:16:29 GMT
Yes, the majority of Japanese styled swords actually have what we could consider about a 3/4 tang. It's kind of rare to see one with a tang that goes all the way to the bottom of the tsuka.
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Post by fatebinder on Sept 1, 2016 4:20:06 GMT
Early Edo period sword: Note the "tang" is only about 2/3 the length of the Tsuka. This was more or less the "norm" but shorter examples like the ones in the last picture exist. Anway, I think I made my case, at least for Japanese swords anyway. EDIT* forgot the link new.uniquejapan.com/early-edo-kanbun-shinto-katana/?com=Swords
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 4:40:59 GMT
Ah, i thought you referred to EU swords as well...on Katana this type of tang is typical, yeah. I consider everything not being a rat-tail thing "full tang".
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Post by MOK on Sept 1, 2016 13:15:20 GMT
Ah, i thought you referred to EU swords as well...on Katana this type of tang is typical, yeah. I consider everything not being a rat-tail thing "full tang". Well, for example the vast majority of seaxes of all sizes have a similar stub tang, most of them attached only by friction and adhesives (including this monster)... At the risk of sounding like a bitter old man, the phrase "full tang" has become so overused and vaguely understood it doesn't really signify anything anymore. It's diluted to the point of homeopathy. Outside of the formal academic context in a work that actually defines its terms before using them, it's become just another meaningless marketing turn of phrase like "battle ready" or "damascus steel". The absence or presence of a "full tang", whatever that means, is in no way indicative of the quality or strength of a sword.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 1, 2016 14:48:55 GMT
As far as I know a "full tang" goes trough the whole hilt/grip/pommel (if there), which does not preserve against a thin, bad welded rat tail tang advertised as full tang. The most durable construction should be the "grosse messer" hilt with two grip plades on a visible, grip-shaped tang in the center. Typical katana are not "full tang", but "full tang" is not the only possible "good" construction and not a quality per se. "Tactical" hilts should be nearly indestructable or easy to fix, better both of it (and perhaps black and mounted with a flashlight or a laser). So I really like the grosse-messer-full-tang of my hanwei tac kat, but a well fixed micarta/plastic-tsuka-thing can do the job, look at the cs machetes. Don't know what the honshu is.
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