|
|
Post by howler on Jul 26, 2017 1:31:33 GMT
True. If they all rushed in with equal length weapons, I can imagine at least one of them would land a fatal blow and it would leave you with only enough time to deal a fatal blow to one of them. If one were to use the multiple doorways and corners in a house... Maybe they can use this to their advantage. But if fighting trained opponents, I'm not sure how big an advantage that is I was thinking more along the lines of a set up I had used before as a team. One person with a weapon like a spear that can poke from afar and close up and another with a more traditional dueling weapon like a sword. The person with the spear, even if it was 2v2 or more, can poke the opponent with a solid disabling blow from out of nowhere. No, that is where I was coming from on that point. For a while it really baffled me why there weren't "group tactics" until I realized they are contained in the multiple attacker forms. It isn't spelled out explicitly which is why I failed to notice it for a long time. It was shortly after realizing that a number of "one on one" forms aren't necessarily actually one on one thats just what is presented. The "losing" side isn't just what not to do. In that case, I'm not quite sure how you arrive at that. I can't think of any particular kata where I would, as a group, want to emulate the attacking side as far as group tactics go. Can you give me an example? You describe an even greater nightmare for the defender, if one or two people (out of two or three aggressors) have a spear, because the spear beats the sword. In this case, the defender had BETTER hope he is going against the Three Stooges, because, in an open field your pretty much a dead man and would simply be impaled like a wild pig. Of course, there is always hope...yuk, yuk, yuk. |
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 26, 2017 2:21:32 GMT
You describe an even greater nightmare for the defender, if one or two people (out of two or three aggressors) have a spear, because the spear beats the sword. In this case, the defender had BETTER hope he is going against the Three Stooges, because, in an open field your pretty much a dead man and would simply be impaled like a wild pig. Of course, there is always hope...yuk, yuk, yuk. It's been done. One interesting end-of-Edo case (when the fighting between abolish-the-shogunate, reform-the-shogunate, and change-nothing factions reached the level of murders/assassinations) of one skilled swordsman attacked by 3 assassins, 2 with swords and one with spear. He drew his long sword, and cut into the yari haft as hard as he could, to trap the yari. Drew his short sword and killed the spearman. Then killed one the the swordsmen (with his wakizashi, since his katana was stuck in the yari haft), and the last swordsman ran. He hit the last swordsman in the thigh with a shuriken as he ran, but it didn't stop him. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2017 2:41:26 GMT
but that's impossible, there's no way a SHORT sword could beat a spear!
|
|
|
|
Post by howler on Jul 26, 2017 2:52:54 GMT
You describe an even greater nightmare for the defender, if one or two people (out of two or three aggressors) have a spear, because the spear beats the sword. In this case, the defender had BETTER hope he is going against the Three Stooges, because, in an open field your pretty much a dead man and would simply be impaled like a wild pig. Of course, there is always hope...yuk, yuk, yuk. It's been done. One interesting end-of-Edo case (when the fighting between abolish-the-shogunate, reform-the-shogunate, and change-nothing factions reached the level of murders/assassinations) of one skilled swordsman attacked by 3 assassins, 2 with swords and one with spear. He drew his long sword, and cut into the yari haft as hard as he could, to trap the yari. Drew his short sword and killed the spearman. Then killed one the the swordsmen (with his wakizashi, since his katana was stuck in the yari haft), and the last swordsman ran. He hit the last swordsman in the thigh with a shuriken as he ran, but it didn't stop him. I didn't know the Three Stooges were in Japan that long ago?  Very interest fact, Timo. Seriously, I'm guessing that dude was light years beyond those assassins, and it was two swords and a spear against a sword instead of two spears and a sword against a sword. I mean, if you think about it, if you have spearmen on EACH SIDE while a swordsman is in the middle (open ground), you are going to get poked unless your literally against the Three Stooges? I'm guessing it could have been in an environment where there were walls, trees, uneven ground, etc...for the master to have a chance. Heck, in the real world, a swordsman could scream loudly and three men might run, as who REALLY wants to get cut, so psychology is huge. My only contention is that all things being EQUAL. |
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 26, 2017 7:04:03 GMT
On a good day, a good spearman can beat 3 swordsmen. They don't have to be bumblers, either. But that doesn't mean the spear is invincible. You definitely want a large advantage in skill when facing a spear with a sword.
Sword (preferably two swords) against a couple of spears can work, if the spearmen are overconfident. If they're average-skill and careless (e.g., through overconfidence), the trick would be to finish one spearman very quickly, and then repeat with the other one before he can process what has happened and take the threat seriously.
One spearman on each side isn't necessarily worse than a single spearman. Pick one, close and you either win or lose, before the other spearman can do anything. Then it's just one on one. Maybe you can pick up the spear, too.
|
|
|
|
Post by jammer on Jul 26, 2017 20:26:39 GMT
Simultaneous attacks, with swords from angles was not practiced for, I think because sword fights were normaly duels. One on one. So i dont think it entered the schools, in the same way that we dont box on a battlefield, or in skirmishes. Sword duels were a way of setling fueds betwen individuals, jostling for rank, where elite sword ability was a currency of status. I think swords have become such a fetish, that we forget that, outsiide of cavalry, theynwere useless in war, especialy the long ones. They were a symbol of rank. The forms we have for two long swords are not for sword-vs-sword duels. Some of them were developed for military training. The Korean forms from Muyedobotongji were military for sure (2 forms, one on foot and one mounted). I don't know the ancestry of the various Chinese forms, but it could be military, at least for some. If not military, then (a) self-defence oriented, not duelling oriented, and assuming multiple opponents and including spear as an opposing weapon, or (b) basic training in movement, or (c) showmanship. Sword ability wasn't much of a sign of rank in China and Korea (ability with the pen, OTOH ...). Thats very interesting. Was sword ownership, and wearing, a sign of rank in China? I had always assumed it was, but I projected that idea without any knowledge at all of chinese customs for wearing swords, thh I dont even know if the sword was fetishised to the same extent in China that it was elsewhere. |
|
|
|
Post by jammer on Jul 26, 2017 20:40:27 GMT
but that's impossible, there's no way a SHORT sword could beat a spear! The trick with a short sword against spear is to get the spear to attack the sword itself, if he does, then yes, a spear can be easily beaten with a short sword. Its just if you can get the spear to attack the kodachi. The stance whilst holding the short sword is a key to getting the right attack. A very experienced spearman will never attack the short sword, but enough apparently did to make a complete subset of kata. Its a bit like your video, of which I was critical, sword vs knife, where you let the knife touch your sword tip, the advantage is lost. This is what I mean by getting the spear to attack (fight) the short sword. |
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 26, 2017 22:39:45 GMT
The forms we have for two long swords are not for sword-vs-sword duels. Some of them were developed for military training. The Korean forms from Muyedobotongji were military for sure (2 forms, one on foot and one mounted). I don't know the ancestry of the various Chinese forms, but it could be military, at least for some. If not military, then (a) self-defence oriented, not duelling oriented, and assuming multiple opponents and including spear as an opposing weapon, or (b) basic training in movement, or (c) showmanship. Sword ability wasn't much of a sign of rank in China and Korea (ability with the pen, OTOH ...). Thats very interesting. Was sword ownership, and wearing, a sign of rank in China? I had always assumed it was, but I projected that idea without any knowledge at all of chinese customs for wearing swords, thh I dont even know if the sword was fetishised to the same extent in China that it was elsewhere. Traditionally, archery was the martial pursuit of gentlemen (Confucius practiced archery, and recommended it). During the Ming Dynasty, the jian became an acceptable thing for a gentleman to wear, but the jian as such didn't become a class marker. A fancy jian was a class marker, but that was because it was fancy, not because it was a jian. Owning a sword Wasn't a sign of rank. Soldiers owned swords. Militia members owned swords. Daoist priests owned swords. Sword collectors owned swords (art object swords - there was even a small industry in fake Warring States bronze swords during the Ming Dynasty). Commoners might carry swords for self-defence. Some officials would carry a sword. Notably, military officials and Qing nobility (but they didn't wear them all the time - it might have been part of the full ceremonial court dress, but they're often (usually!) shown in art and photos without swords). To show status, it would be a high quality sword and/or very ornamented. The high-status path to becoming a military official was to pass the civil service exam (which could get you to either civil or military appointments); passing the military exam was seen as a second-rate path. So quite a few military officials who wore swords might have been pretty clueless about their use. |
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 26, 2017 22:43:19 GMT
but that's impossible, there's no way a SHORT sword could beat a spear! The trick with a short sword against spear is to get the spear to attack the sword itself, if he does, then yes, a spear can be easily beaten with a short sword. Its just if you can get the spear to attack the kodachi. The stance whilst holding the short sword is a key to getting the right attack. A very experienced spearman will never attack the short sword, but enough apparently did to make a complete subset of kata. Its a bit like your video, of which I was critical, sword vs knife, where you let the knife touch your sword tip, the advantage is lost. This is what I mean by getting the spear to attack (fight) the short sword. I think you can extend that "very experienced spearman" all the way down to "competent spearman". Facing a sword with a spear, the thing you don't want to do is to give them a chance to control where you can move your spear. (Sometimes, you will deliberately contact the sword, e.g., with a beat, to get them to over-react in response and open their centre.) |
|
|
|
Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 26, 2017 23:35:19 GMT
The trick with a short sword against spear is to get the spear to attack the sword itself, if he does, then yes, a spear can be easily beaten with a short sword. Its just if you can get the spear to attack the kodachi. The stance whilst holding the short sword is a key to getting the right attack. A very experienced spearman will never attack the short sword, but enough apparently did to make a complete subset of kata. Its a bit like your video, of which I was critical, sword vs knife, where you let the knife touch your sword tip, the advantage is lost. This is what I mean by getting the spear to attack (fight) the short sword. In my experience, the trick was to either bait an attack you could advance on while simultaneously advancing or to dominate control of the flow. I want to say good reflexes help, but I've had mine tested and they are below average at near 300ms in visual stimuli but average elsewhere (could be because I have poor eyesight without glasses though). I think the trick is more to be comfortable with fighting a spear and knowing that just because you blocked/are in close, doesn't mean a spear can't retract and come from up close to run you through (chinese spear techniques often deal with people who get too close). You have to flow with the spearman but not let them gain control or initiative because if you do, the speed at which it can maneuver and thrust is hard to deal with. After getting more used to them and how to fight them, I didn't find them more difficult to fight than a skilled fighter of any other weapon. |
|
|
|
Post by howler on Jul 27, 2017 0:26:28 GMT
The trick with a short sword against spear is to get the spear to attack the sword itself, if he does, then yes, a spear can be easily beaten with a short sword. Its just if you can get the spear to attack the kodachi. The stance whilst holding the short sword is a key to getting the right attack. A very experienced spearman will never attack the short sword, but enough apparently did to make a complete subset of kata. Its a bit like your video, of which I was critical, sword vs knife, where you let the knife touch your sword tip, the advantage is lost. This is what I mean by getting the spear to attack (fight) the short sword. In my experience, the trick was to either bait an attack you could advance on while simultaneously advancing or to dominate control of the flow. I want to say good reflexes help, but I've had mine tested and they are below average at near 300ms in visual stimuli but average elsewhere (could be because I have poor eyesight without glasses though). I think the trick is more to be comfortable with fighting a spear and knowing that just because you blocked/are in close, doesn't mean a spear can't retract and come from up close to run you through (chinese spear techniques often deal with people who get too close). You have to flow with the spearman but not let them gain control or initiative because if you do, the speed at which it can maneuver and thrust is hard to deal with. After getting more used to them and how to fight them, I didn't find them more difficult to fight than a skilled fighter of any other weapon. In GENERAL, an equally skilled spearman is superior to an equally skilled swordsman (ANY sword), for many reasons (beyond economy of manufacture), as they were the backbone of all cultures on the battlefield. Reach, tip speed, economy of thrust is naturally inherent advantage. However, skill is/can be a deciding factor, so my comment above is merely a general statement due to the physical characteristics of the tools only, as you'd pretty much whup me with anything unless I had a rifle. |
|
|
|
Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 27, 2017 0:33:40 GMT
In GENERAL, an equally skilled spearman is superior to an equally skilled swordsman (ANY sword), for many reasons (beyond economy of manufacture), as they were the backbone of all cultures on the battlefield. Reach, tip speed, economy of thrust is naturally inherent advantage. However, skill is/can be a deciding factor, so my comment above is merely a general statement due to the physical characteristics of the tools only, as you'd pretty much whup me with anything unless I had a rifle. Spears (and some rifles) have the problem of the user being killed by dead people though, something swords tend to have a little less of. Things like bullets, swords, and spears take people down normally due to drops in BP (unless you destroy the brain/spine) caused by the holes they create. A spear, if someone is dedicated (or on drugs) enough, will result in the spearman getting killed by the dead swordsman as they don't cause enough of an immediate loss to all but guarantee the one getting ran through stopping. However, given all other things being equal, I will concede that a spear has ever so slight of an advantage as long as their dead opponent doesn't kill them.  Also I may be a tad biased as I like swords just ever so slightly more. >> Also, why is that? Do you not spar much? |
|
|
|
Post by howler on Jul 27, 2017 3:49:36 GMT
In GENERAL, an equally skilled spearman is superior to an equally skilled swordsman (ANY sword), for many reasons (beyond economy of manufacture), as they were the backbone of all cultures on the battlefield. Reach, tip speed, economy of thrust is naturally inherent advantage. However, skill is/can be a deciding factor, so my comment above is merely a general statement due to the physical characteristics of the tools only, as you'd pretty much whup me with anything unless I had a rifle. Spears (and some rifles) have the problem of the user being killed by dead people though, something swords tend to have a little less of. Things like bullets, swords, and spears take people down normally due to drops in BP (unless you destroy the brain/spine) caused by the holes they create. A spear, if someone is dedicated (or on drugs) enough, will result in the spearman getting killed by the dead swordsman as they don't cause enough of an immediate loss to all but guarantee the one getting ran through stopping. However, given all other things being equal, I will concede that a spear has ever so slight of an advantage as long as their dead opponent doesn't kill them. Also I may be a tad biased as I like swords just ever so slightly more. >> Also, why is that? Do you not spar much? I have a Ko Katana (Chenese Specialized Cutter) under my bed because of the power of (potentially greater) instant incapacitation (so I know what your saying), particularly because a home invader may have a firearm (though I would use my guns first ). Honestly though, if your poked good...your done, as you would either be insane, on PCP or both, if you had a hole through you (meaning the home invader would run the hell out...gulp...while bleeding out). All the armies of old had spears, polearms (including Japan), so that's my contention. I don't spar at all, but am interested in, and collect. I will say that I favor polearms more than spears, as you can still chop limbs, and poke REAL BIG holes that incapacitate quickly. I do like my sword collection more because they are "less plain" and are so noble and pretty. Really, it all depends on the environment, which is why I have that Ko Katana, for ceilings, hallways, ambush behind doorways. If I'm in the hallway I can hold someone off with my spear, Billhook, halberd, but it really doesn't shine and is (clearly) limited in movement. What do you think of ScholaGladiatoria on YouTube, as he kind of explains swords vs. spears in great detail? |
|
|
|
Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 27, 2017 4:28:56 GMT
I have a Ko Katana (Chenese Specialized Cutter) under my bed because of the power of (potentially greater) instant incapacitation (so I know what your saying), particularly because a home invader may have a firearm (though I would use my guns first ). Honestly though, if your poked good...your done, as you would either be insane, on PCP or both, if you had a hole through you (meaning the home invader would run the hell out...gulp...while bleeding out). All the armies of old had spears, polearms (including Japan), so that's my contention. I don't spar at all, but am interested in, and collect. I will say that I favor polearms more than spears, as you can still chop limbs, and poke REAL BIG holes that incapacitate quickly. I do like my sword collection more because they are "less plain" and are so noble and pretty. Really, it all depends on the environment, which is why I have that Ko Katana, for ceilings, hallways, ambush behind doorways. If I'm in the hallway I can hold someone off with my spear, Billhook, halberd, but it really doesn't shine and is (clearly) limited in movement. What do you think of ScholaGladiatoria on YouTube, as he kind of explains swords vs. spears in great detail? Oh, that or you have to be really pumping that adrenaline or you could also just be really, really accepting of the pain. There were monks who set themselves on fire as a form of protest and just... sat there in meditation. I would think if someone had that kind of willpower, they could kill someone after a spear has pierced them. I suppose it really depends on how well you can handle the pain mentally. Would I be able to do it? Don't know (aka, probably not), never been in that much pain. Worst I've ever done is cut my foot open down to the tendon but I handled that really well. I stuck my hands in it and pinched the vein together then squeezed the meat around it and went to the hospital to have it sewn up. However, that is just my foot, not a spearhead through my abdomen or lung or something. However, there are plenty of historical accounts of dead people killing the person who shot/stabbed them. This is the first time I've seen this video. I agree with the majority of his video. He brings up two good points. One being one that I mentioned, that a spearman can retract his spear rather quickly so your window is small. Often times your counter cut has to be during this retraction, hence my statement of you having to advance during the attack itself. You do this and counter on the retraction. However, the spear is still tougher to fight with at a close range than a sword, though the advantage a sword has up close vs a spear is much smaller than the advantage a spear has against a sword at range. The spearman should just remember to wear armored gloves or watch his fingers, lol. Another thing he mentions is the spear composed of wood issue. That is something that exists but can often be harder to exploit than just "cut the spear shaft bro, git gud." You have to cut the same spot multiple times on a weapon that is extending and retracting at different rates. That is hard to do, especially mid fight. Some of the featured related videos show sparring between swords and spears and one of the main things I see people doing wrong is some of their blocks being very odd ones to use against thrusts. Often times thrusts are too quick to wholly sweep out of the way, so you want to combine body and foot work with you block enough to move the spear off course, not receive the spear as if it was a cut coming in. Idk if it was just the people doing it or that is how sabres/short swords block, but it seemed counter intuitive to me. I also saw people grabbing for a spear that wasn't being occupied, which is a terrible idea. If the spearman's attention catches you reaching for their spear, you are probably going to get cut. You want to grab only when they are already doing something with the spear. Another thing is people who move in too close too fast on a neutral spear which is just sitting there. This is bad for a couple of reasons, the first being a simple math problem. A spear requiring less distance to move will reach the target and retract faster, both parts. That is important. It shortens your window to react and it shortens their recovery and it shortens the amount of time they have to realize an open target before they can strike it. One might say it is less time for the person with the sword to have to move in, but often it is not as much of a change for the one moving as it is for the spearman. Another is perspective. A spear where you don't have the distance to see the depth of the spear results in a harder to block spear because it is harder to tell exactly what range the spear is at and the visual cue comes later as the eye perceives the change later that it would due to the optical illusion of movement. Michael Jai White has a neat video where he teaches kimbo slice the illusion with punches where keeping your arm lined up making it harder to perceive the depth of the punch and it's movement makes it harder to react to. |
|
|
|
Post by howler on Jul 27, 2017 5:05:41 GMT
I have a Ko Katana (Chenese Specialized Cutter) under my bed because of the power of (potentially greater) instant incapacitation (so I know what your saying), particularly because a home invader may have a firearm (though I would use my guns first ). Honestly though, if your poked good...your done, as you would either be insane, on PCP or both, if you had a hole through you (meaning the home invader would run the hell out...gulp...while bleeding out). All the armies of old had spears, polearms (including Japan), so that's my contention. I don't spar at all, but am interested in, and collect. I will say that I favor polearms more than spears, as you can still chop limbs, and poke REAL BIG holes that incapacitate quickly. I do like my sword collection more because they are "less plain" and are so noble and pretty. Really, it all depends on the environment, which is why I have that Ko Katana, for ceilings, hallways, ambush behind doorways. If I'm in the hallway I can hold someone off with my spear, Billhook, halberd, but it really doesn't shine and is (clearly) limited in movement. What do you think of ScholaGladiatoria on YouTube, as he kind of explains swords vs. spears in great detail? Oh, that or you have to be really pumping that adrenaline or you could also just be really, really accepting of the pain. There were monks who set themselves on fire as a form of protest and just... sat there in meditation. I would think if someone had that kind of willpower, they could kill someone after a spear has pierced them. I suppose it really depends on how well you can handle the pain mentally. Would I be able to do it? Don't know (aka, probably not), never been in that much pain. Worst I've ever done is cut my foot open down to the tendon but I handled that really well. I stuck my hands in it and pinched the vein together then squeezed the meat around it and went to the hospital to have it sewn up. However, that is just my foot, not a spearhead through my abdomen or lung or something. However, there are plenty of historical accounts of dead people killing the person who shot/stabbed them. This is the first time I've seen this video. I agree with the majority of his video. He brings up two good points. One being one that I mentioned, that a spearman can retract his spear rather quickly so your window is small. Often times your counter cut has to be during this retraction, hence my statement of you having to advance during the attack itself. You do this and counter on the retraction. However, the spear is still tougher to fight with at a close range than a sword, though the advantage a sword has up close vs a spear is much smaller than the advantage a spear has against a sword at range. The spearman should just remember to wear armored gloves or watch his fingers, lol. Another thing he mentions is the spear composed of wood issue. That is something that exists but can often be harder to exploit than just "cut the spear shaft bro, git gud." You have to cut the same spot multiple times on a weapon that is extending and retracting at different rates. That is hard to do, especially mid fight. Some of the featured related videos show sparring between swords and spears and one of the main things I see people doing wrong is some of their blocks being very odd ones to use against thrusts. Often times thrusts are too quick to wholly sweep out of the way, so you want to combine body and foot work with you block enough to move the spear off course, not receive the spear as if it was a cut coming in. Idk if it was just the people doing it or that is how sabres/short swords block, but it seemed counter intuitive to me. I also saw people grabbing for a spear that wasn't being occupied, which is a terrible idea. If the spearman's attention catches you reaching for their spear, you are probably going to get cut. You want to grab only when they are already doing something with the spear. Another thing is people who move in too close too fast on a neutral spear which is just sitting there. This is bad for a couple of reasons, the first being a simple math problem. A spear requiring less distance to move will reach the target and retract faster, both parts. That is important. It shortens your window to react and it shortens their recovery and it shortens the amount of time they have to realize an open target before they can strike it. One might say it is less time for the person with the sword to have to move in, but often it is not as much of a change for the one moving as it is for the spearman. Another is perspective. A spear where you don't have the distance to see the depth of the spear results in a harder to block spear because it is harder to tell exactly what range the spear is at and the visual cue comes later as the eye perceives the change later that it would due to the optical illusion of movement. Michael Jai White has a neat video where he teaches kimbo slice the illusion with punches where keeping your arm lined up making it harder to perceive the depth of the punch and it's movement makes it harder to react to. No doubt that a committed foe would/could keep coming if not instantly incapacitated by a true spear thrust (say 6" in torso), but I gamble that potential home invaders are REALLY not there looking for a fight to the death, but quick cash and a clean getaway. Under this scenario, I believe a burglar creep is gonna pee/poop his pants after being skewered and then scream for his mother while running out of there. In fact, most burglars are gonna jet once you announce your in the bedroom and are calling the police while getting your gun. In any case, my rifles (Cold AR and Springfield M1A) or shotguns (Mossy in semi or pump) come first, followed by a handgun (S&W 8 shot .357 revolver and Glock), followed by the Ko Katana if they creep around the corner (as your point is very valid about INSTANT STOP). I'd still feel pretty secure if I only had my Assegai (long or short shaft) spears or (better yet, as they have super thick shafts) my Bill Hook polearm or Boar spear (which really is another polearm) because crooks really don't want to be a shish Kabob. Sounds like you know a lot about sword moves, so I'd hate to break into your dwelling, as you'd probably turn me into Sushi (lucky I'm no criminal). |
|
|
|
Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 27, 2017 5:19:59 GMT
No doubt that a committed foe would/could keep coming if not instantly incapacitated by a true spear thrust (say 6" in torso), but I gamble that potential home invaders are REALLY not there looking for a fight to the death, but quick cash and a clean getaway. Under this scenario, I believe a burglar creep is gonna pee/poop his pants after being skewered and then scream for his mother while running out of there. In fact, most burglars are gonna jet once you announce your in the bedroom and are calling the police while getting your gun. In any case, my rifles (Cold AR and Springfield M1A) or shotguns (Mossy in semi or pump) come first, followed by a handgun (S&W 8 shot .357 revolver and Glock), followed by the Ko Katana if they creep around the corner (as your point is very valid about INSTANT STOP). I'd still feel pretty secure if I only had my Assegai (long or short shaft) spears or (better yet, as they have super thick shafts) my Bill Hook polearm or Boar spear (which really is another polearm) because crooks really don't want to be a shish Kabob. Sounds like you know a lot about sword moves, so I'd hate to break into your dwelling, as you'd probably turn me into Sushi (lucky I'm no criminal). Oh, I was mostly referring to duels in the above. For home invasion, the second risk becomes involved to the invader, they tend to jet. This is supported by something that happened recently, just this last week I had someone come to my door with a gun in their waistband. I didn't have a weapon in arm's reach so I just laughed at him and told him he better leave because I'm calling the police and snapped a picture of him and his two lady friends as he ran. This is the real kicker, they ran straight home which was two apartments down. Like, really? Told the police where they lived and handed them a sketch of the guy and the gun. I now keep a sword and bokken at my door and a katana in my living room. My door leads into a hallway that is rather tight so the wakizashi blade and wakizashi bokken is great, full sized sword for if it gets that far or they break in and grab the wakizashi before I hear them coming through my locked door. I mostly laughed because the guy was dressed like a typical movie gang member, was really thin and scrawny, and I have nothing worth stealing. I have a couple of swords, a collection of textbooks no one threatening someone with a gun is going to want, a pc setup no one is going to get out of my house without damaging because of how convoluted the set up is, and a lot of martial arts equipment. Who is going to buy that for an amount that makes up for the risk of armed robbery? Also not the first time I've been held at gunpoint so there was no shock of a new experience. As for my experience, I train everyday in some form or another. I've been doing so for just shy of two decades. However, idk if that makes me good, I've been writing since I was in kindergarten but I haven't improved much in that regard and most people can't read it. I could also just be some hack who claims things that have no basis, so take anything I say with the same grain of salt you should anyone online. Edit: I should also mention that I tend to lean towards pacifism if possible. If I think someone is actually going to kill me dead, I'll do what I can to live, but if I can, I will avoid violence and especially killing. My idea of definitely going to kill me though is probably a bit further than most because I tend to be able to remain pretty calm in stressful situations regardless of how much my fight or flight is going off. |
|
|
|
Post by howler on Jul 27, 2017 7:27:40 GMT
No doubt that a committed foe would/could keep coming if not instantly incapacitated by a true spear thrust (say 6" in torso), but I gamble that potential home invaders are REALLY not there looking for a fight to the death, but quick cash and a clean getaway. Under this scenario, I believe a burglar creep is gonna pee/poop his pants after being skewered and then scream for his mother while running out of there. In fact, most burglars are gonna jet once you announce your in the bedroom and are calling the police while getting your gun. In any case, my rifles (Cold AR and Springfield M1A) or shotguns (Mossy in semi or pump) come first, followed by a handgun (S&W 8 shot .357 revolver and Glock), followed by the Ko Katana if they creep around the corner (as your point is very valid about INSTANT STOP). I'd still feel pretty secure if I only had my Assegai (long or short shaft) spears or (better yet, as they have super thick shafts) my Bill Hook polearm or Boar spear (which really is another polearm) because crooks really don't want to be a shish Kabob. Sounds like you know a lot about sword moves, so I'd hate to break into your dwelling, as you'd probably turn me into Sushi (lucky I'm no criminal). Oh, I was mostly referring to duels in the above. For home invasion, the second risk becomes involved to the invader, they tend to jet. This is supported by something that happened recently, just this last week I had someone come to my door with a gun in their waistband. I didn't have a weapon in arm's reach so I just laughed at him and told him he better leave because I'm calling the police and snapped a picture of him and his two lady friends as he ran. This is the real kicker, they ran straight home which was two apartments down. Like, really? Told the police where they lived and handed them a sketch of the guy and the gun. I now keep a sword and bokken at my door and a katana in my living room. My door leads into a hallway that is rather tight so the wakizashi blade and wakizashi bokken is great, full sized sword for if it gets that far or they break in and grab the wakizashi before I hear them coming through my locked door. I mostly laughed because the guy was dressed like a typical movie gang member, was really thin and scrawny, and I have nothing worth stealing. I have a couple of swords, a collection of textbooks no one threatening someone with a gun is going to want, a pc setup no one is going to get out of my house without damaging because of how convoluted the set up is, and a lot of martial arts equipment. Who is going to buy that for an amount that makes up for the risk of armed robbery? Also not the first time I've been held at gunpoint so there was no shock of a new experience. As for my experience, I train everyday in some form or another. I've been doing so for just shy of two decades. However, idk if that makes me good, I've been writing since I was in kindergarten but I haven't improved much in that regard and most people can't read it. I could also just be some hack who claims things that have no basis, so take anything I say with the same grain of salt you should anyone online. Edit: I should also mention that I tend to lean towards pacifism if possible. If I think someone is actually going to kill me dead, I'll do what I can to live, but if I can, I will avoid violence and especially killing. My idea of definitely going to kill me though is probably a bit further than most because I tend to be able to remain pretty calm in stressful situations regardless of how much my fight or flight is going off. Avoiding fights and jetting if you can is BY FAR the best thing one can do. Your pretty set in a room full of Katana and Waki in strategic areas. Duels were done with swords because, well, they are portable (side arms), like handguns. Japanese (Katana) and Europeans (Rapier) certainly were used to often lethal effect in encounters. Later, Small sword was often to first blood, with rules. Court (dress) swords were the final form, with many being nothing more than cheap, ineffective fashion items.  What you and I are thinking (dare I say FANTISIZING) about is an ancient Rome style gladiator matchup of various weapons types using regular clothing in a large open space. I would LOVE to see two Bill or Halberd wielders go at it (wonder when the last time THAT happened). I got to be honest when saying I'd put my money on a polearm or spearman vs. longsword. I choose longsword over katana due to versatility (can grapple in the bind...made for blade contact) and length. In fact, I would choose a long, heavy rapier with off hand dagger (if allowed), as this was the ultimate dueling sword combo. I just threw a lot of "thought spaghetti" on the wall, didn't I. I'm leaving shields and armor out of it because they are game changers, though a Billhook would still hold its own against a sword and shield. |
|
|
|
Post by jammer on Jul 27, 2017 18:23:31 GMT
Thats very interesting. Was sword ownership, and wearing, a sign of rank in China? I had always assumed it was, but I projected that idea without any knowledge at all of chinese customs for wearing swords, thh I dont even know if the sword was fetishised to the same extent in China that it was elsewhere. Traditionally, archery was the martial pursuit of gentlemen (Confucius practiced archery, and recommended it). During the Ming Dynasty, the jian became an acceptable thing for a gentleman to wear, but the jian as such didn't become a class marker. A fancy jian was a class marker, but that was because it was fancy, not because it was a jian. Owning a sword Wasn't a sign of rank. Soldiers owned swords. Militia members owned swords. Daoist priests owned swords. Sword collectors owned swords (art object swords - there was even a small industry in fake Warring States bronze swords during the Ming Dynasty). Commoners might carry swords for self-defence. Some officials would carry a sword. Notably, military officials and Qing nobility (but they didn't wear them all the time - it might have been part of the full ceremonial court dress, but they're often (usually!) shown in art and photos without swords). To show status, it would be a high quality sword and/or very ornamented. The high-status path to becoming a military official was to pass the civil service exam (which could get you to either civil or military appointments); passing the military exam was seen as a second-rate path. So quite a few military officials who wore swords might have been pretty clueless about their use. Very interesting synopsis, and thank you for taking the time to write it. |
|
|
|
Post by jammer on Jul 27, 2017 18:40:02 GMT
The trick with a short sword against spear is to get the spear to attack the sword itself, if he does, then yes, a spear can be easily beaten with a short sword. Its just if you can get the spear to attack the kodachi. The stance whilst holding the short sword is a key to getting the right attack. A very experienced spearman will never attack the short sword, but enough apparently did to make a complete subset of kata. Its a bit like your video, of which I was critical, sword vs knife, where you let the knife touch your sword tip, the advantage is lost. This is what I mean by getting the spear to attack (fight) the short sword. I think you can extend that "very experienced spearman" all the way down to "competent spearman". Facing a sword with a spear, the thing you don't want to do is to give them a chance to control where you can move your spear. (Sometimes, you will deliberately contact the sword, e.g., with a beat, to get them to over-react in response and open their centre.) Maybe here we have a cultural discrepncy here, in terms of weapon choice. A diference between the chinese and the island to their east. There are some, not enough to conclude, but certainly many accounts of very capable japanese swordsmen that went into pitched field battle as infantry. The records of their weapon choice always mentions them taking spears, and presumably their short sword although it is not explicitly mentioned. So I think it was possible to run into many levels of capability with spears, certainly in organised battles, seiges, storming castles etc in the japanese context. In "civilian" life there are no accounts of the same men that relied on the spear in battle ever using a spear as self defence or to settle disputes. I think we are seeing here the seperation of the sword to becoming a status symbol, or a tool of honour, in the society there. During the 18th century. |
|
|
|
Post by jammer on Jul 27, 2017 18:42:51 GMT
I think you can extend that "very experienced spearman" all the way down to "competent spearman". Facing a sword with a spear, the thing you don't want to do is to give them a chance to control where you can move your spear. (Sometimes, you will deliberately contact the sword, e.g., with a beat, to get them to over-react in response and open their centre.) Maybe here we have a cultural discrepncy here, in terms of weapon choice. A diference between the chinese and the island to their east. There are some, not enough to conclude, but certainly many accounts of very capable japanese swordsmen that went into pitched field battle as infantry. The records of their weapon choice always mentions them taking spears, and presumably their short sword although it is not explicitly mentioned. There are also disprging remarks made about "spear men" by those same men that selected a spear (yari) to battle. Confusing as it is, it must have seemed coherent to them. So I think it was possible to run into many levels of capability with spears, certainly in organised battles, seiges, storming castles etc in the japanese context. In "civilian" life there are no accounts of the same men that relied on the spear in battle ever using a spear as self defence or to settle disputes. I think we are seeing here the seperation of the sword to becoming a status symbol, or a tool of honour, in the society there. During the 18th century. |
|
Very interest fact, Timo. Seriously, I'm guessing that dude was light years beyond those assassins, and it was two swords and a spear against a sword instead of two spears and a sword against a sword. I mean, if you think about it, if you have spearmen on EACH SIDE while a swordsman is in the middle (open ground), you are going to get poked unless your literally against the Three Stooges? I'm guessing it could have been in an environment where there were walls, trees, uneven ground, etc...for the master to have a chance. Heck, in the real world, a swordsman could scream loudly and three men might run, as who REALLY wants to get cut, so psychology is huge. My only contention is that all things being EQUAL.
What you and I are thinking (dare I say FANTISIZING) about is an ancient Rome style gladiator matchup of various weapons types using regular clothing in a large open space. I would LOVE to see two Bill or Halberd wielders go at it (wonder when the last time THAT happened). I got to be honest when saying I'd put my money on a polearm or spearman vs. longsword. I choose longsword over katana due to versatility (can grapple in the bind...made for blade contact) and length. In fact, I would choose a long, heavy rapier with off hand dagger (if allowed), as this was the ultimate dueling sword combo. I just threw a lot of "thought spaghetti" on the wall, didn't I. I'm leaving shields and armor out of it because they are game changers, though a Billhook would still hold its own against a sword and shield.
