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Post by howler on Jan 25, 2017 20:28:12 GMT
Better not to be touched at all, but needing to get your hand stitched up is still preferable to having the skull cleaved open. Worst case you can live without a hand, right? The Rob Roy maneuver. |
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Post by howler on Jan 25, 2017 20:33:19 GMT
There's a fundamental misunderstanding that I've seen at play for years regarding binding. Binding is not strictly a matter of edge on edge. You can bind with anything when you have the right oppositional pressure, directed with the right alignment. You can bind with the front, back, sides of the blade. You can bind with the guard or the handle - what is tsubazeriai if not a bind? You don't even need a sword to bind, push hands is a bind. Crossed forearms can be a bind. Advantage is relative. One of the reasons to control the weak with the strong isn't just because the base of the blade is thicker, but because of the relative position to the hand allowing you to exert a more direct influence on the other person through the swords. This is true, but some things are designed to a far higher degree to do so. Longsword is simply orders of magnitude more appropriate than Katana in binding engagements. |
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Post by howler on Jan 25, 2017 20:38:48 GMT
Or worst case scenario you get a cut and you are dead. Too much Hollywood with guys catching flying swords in their empty palms. Or you think the longsword stays and waits for you to do your stuff? Death from sliced palm is pretty far down the list of likely outcomes. unless you are a balloon animal, I suppose  Ah, the fatal attraction of the balloon animals and their (all too) brief sexual encounters with the porcupine. Strange but true...NOT. |
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Post by Cosmoline on Jan 25, 2017 20:39:39 GMT
Well you really need to either stop the blade or wait until it is stopped. So in the case of the inverted hand grab, the blade is positively stopped as it's coming from the opponent's left shoulder by aggressive blocking of your own blade. That way both blades are no longer posing a threat, and the opponent's blade is stopped. It gives a moment for the grab.
Alternately, and more commonly, the opponent will stay at long measure and prod at you from longpoint. Because of the nature of thrusting with longswords, there will be natural moments where the blade stops moving forward as he plays Mr. Pokey. It's not really rocket science. If the thrust is made, the blade stops when you run out of forward movement. Arm alone or arm+hip or arm+hip+leg. By staying just out of measure you can absolutely grab the weak of his blade. It's a move shown from I.33 to the smallsword treatises five hundred years later.
But what you may have real trouble doing is a grab after a "V" bind from covering blows. In such a scenario the longsword doesn't stop. And if you remove your left hand from the grip you may not be able to prevent a complete collapse of your position.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jan 25, 2017 20:45:18 GMT
So, because you imagine it can't work, we'll just ignore the old masters who described such techniques. We'll also ignore modern practitioners who have shown it's possible to grab paper-cutting sharp longswords without getting cut. Clearly, your omniscience trumps practical real-life demonstration and what those with experience of real combat with swords wrote. Show me the JSA source showing the blade grabbing. I don't know who's Trump here, since you think that what works with longsword works with katana. Funny, I am accused of trolling.
PS To make it clear: IF you are not taught how to do it, when to do it, and why you are doing it, you better not do it. The entire JSA survived because they passed down on paper and oral communication the knowledge that covers the 3 points above.
Why would grabbing the blade of a sharp longsword be any different than grabbing a sharp katana? Katana aren't lightsabers |
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Post by howler on Jan 25, 2017 20:46:49 GMT
Jon, your sempai is doing those things because he experimented them years. There are not scary things. Even noto with a shinken is a scary thing - especially when you are doing it Okuden style: the blade touches briefly the koiguchi right below the monouchi and down the saia goes. You have to do that all the time? Not really, but you better learn it. I am not against learning things, I am against "monkey see monkey do" without the when? the where? and the why?. I agree with you here. I am very against the idea of salad bar martial arts where people grab whatever looks nice to them without a context. Almost anything can work, but there's a reason why and a context it works in, otherwise we may as well flail and hope for the best. Maybe you get lucky, but I don't want to have to count on luck. Hey, you just knocked my life strategy (flail and hope for the best)...come to think of it, that does explain waking up in a dumpster covered in tattoos with a porcupine in my under ware. |
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Post by Derzis on Jan 25, 2017 20:53:48 GMT
Show me the JSA source showing the blade grabbing. I don't know who's Trump here, since you think that what works with longsword works with katana. Funny, I am accused of trolling.
PS To make it clear: IF you are not taught how to do it, when to do it, and why you are doing it, you better not do it. The entire JSA survived because they passed down on paper and oral communication the knowledge that covers the 3 points above.
Why would grabbing the blade of a sharp longsword be any different than grabbing a sharp katana? Katana aren't lightsabers ;) Because nobody teaches you in JSA to grab the opponent's blade safely. It teaches you other things: to grab his handle, his hand, his elbow, your own blade but not his blade. Even the most spectacular "block and disarm" techniques have the hands protected by the tsuka and tsuba. JSA is very attack oriented - is how I see it. Grabbing his blade to make space for your own blow takes 1 - 2 - 3 movements. Why bothering on daily basis with this when parrying and counter are good enough? Just because we live in an era where some are pushing for mixmartialswordscircus? Not worth the effort IMO.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jan 25, 2017 20:57:43 GMT
Why would grabbing the blade of a sharp longsword be any different than grabbing a sharp katana? Katana aren't lightsabers Because nobody teaches you in JSA to grab the opponent's blade safely. It teaches you other things: to grab his handle, his hand, his elbow, your own blade but not his blade. Even the most spectacular "block and disarm" techniques have the hands protected by the tsuka and tsuba. JSA is very attack oriented - is how I see it. Grabbing his blade to make space for your own blow takes 1 - 2 - 3 movements. Why bothering on daily basis with this when parrying and counter are good enough? Just because we live in an era where some are pushing for mixmartialswordscircus? Not worth the effort IMO. So just because JSA doesn't teach it means it can't be possible? Also in longsword you have methods where you grab hands as well, grabbing the blade is just quicker. |
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Post by Derzis on Jan 25, 2017 21:02:05 GMT
Because nobody teaches you in JSA to grab the opponent's blade safely. It teaches you other things: to grab his handle, his hand, his elbow, your own blade but not his blade. Even the most spectacular "block and disarm" techniques have the hands protected by the tsuka and tsuba. JSA is very attack oriented - is how I see it. Grabbing his blade to make space for your own blow takes 1 - 2 - 3 movements. Why bothering on daily basis with this when parrying and counter are good enough? Just because we live in an era where some are pushing for mixmartialswordscircus? Not worth the effort IMO. So just because JSA doesn't teach it means it can't be possible? Also in longsword you have methods where you grab hands as well, grabbing the blade is just quicker. As it was said above, everything is possible. You followed this topic or you just happen to read last 2 pages? |
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jan 25, 2017 21:07:15 GMT
So just because JSA doesn't teach it means it can't be possible? Also in longsword you have methods where you grab hands as well, grabbing the blade is just quicker. As it was said above, everything is possible. You followed this topic or you just happen to read last 2 pages? I'd say I read about 5 posts, not including this one. You said that you cannot grab the blade of a katana, that it wouldn't work. I asked why not, as both sword are edged pieces of steel. You stated this is because of it not being taught. |
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Post by Derzis on Jan 25, 2017 21:11:29 GMT
As it was said above, everything is possible. You followed this topic or you just happen to read last 2 pages? I'd say I read about 5 posts, not including this one. You said that you cannot grab the blade of a katana, that it wouldn't work. I asked why not, as both sword are edged pieces of steel. You stated this is because of it not being taught. No, I stated that in a fight against a longsword a katana guy will not go for grabbing the longsword blade. It will be the last resort as some said - out of desperation/option. This was the context. |
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jan 25, 2017 21:16:17 GMT
I'd say I read about 5 posts, not including this one. You said that you cannot grab the blade of a katana, that it wouldn't work. I asked why not, as both sword are edged pieces of steel. You stated this is because of it not being taught. No, I stated that in a fight against a longsword a katana guy will not go for grabbing the longsword blade. It will be the last resort as some said - out of desperation/option. This was the context. My bad then, I misunderstood. |
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Post by howler on Jan 25, 2017 21:25:27 GMT
The time to grab the tip would be if the LS is in a static long point. This has to be done decisively and fast enough they won't notice. A mid-measure bind would be more likely to lead to winding than viable grabbing, but I do remember options of seizing the blades together at the point of the bind and going into a disarm and wrestling. If you want to bind and grab, I would recommend binding him well off to his left side while moving in. This creates a beat of control where you can seize with the inverted left hand and wrench the blade free while performing a bogen deflection with the katana. We discovered this move in I.33 and have since used it in full speed sparring. It works very well. BUT if you were to try something like this against a bind in front of your face, you won't be able to prevent the treadthrough or winden. Nor will you be able to control the center. In a classic longsword bind the swords are VERY MUCH in motion. The attacker learns by muscle memory and thousands of drills to flow through or around the point of binding. Standing there looking at each other like Hollywood actors is very strongly discouraged. I got hit with a stick for doing it. You would need to actually block the incoming blade outside the center, where he cannot wind and both of your blades are out of martial threat position. You essentially give up your own option to wind in order to neutralize his, then your hand comes in for the grab. Yes, the whole binding attack is FAST. There is a YouTube video that shows two men (in goofy looking period attire) dueling and the engagement from blade on blade contact to thrust is extremely quick, almost simultaneous. |
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Post by howler on Jan 25, 2017 22:40:32 GMT
I'd say I read about 5 posts, not including this one. You said that you cannot grab the blade of a katana, that it wouldn't work. I asked why not, as both sword are edged pieces of steel. You stated this is because of it not being taught. No, I stated that in a fight against a longsword a katana guy will not go for grabbing the longsword blade. It will be the last resort as some said - out of desperation/option. This was the context. Yeah, with regards to the grabbing of blades, while doing such with the longsword would be bad enough (while being close and in the bind), since the katana was traditionally fought without blade on blade contact (which movies like Highlander foolishly illustrated) it would seem like an even worse idea. Samurai and their economy of motion, blinding speed and strength (and those RAZOR sharp blades)...grabbing would be a LAST resort for sure. Anything is possible in battle, and there are no rules, but that still doesn't make it (blade grabbing) an abominably risky maneuver. Sacrifice fingers/hand in exchange for counter attack and to walk away with head still attached to shoulders. Also, if things go to a last ditch wrestling match, your gonna try anything, I suppose. |
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Post by Derzis on Jan 25, 2017 23:58:24 GMT
No, I stated that in a fight against a longsword a katana guy will not go for grabbing the longsword blade. It will be the last resort as some said - out of desperation/option. This was the context. Yeah, with regards to the grabbing of blades, while doing such with the longsword would be bad enough (while being close and in the bind), since the katana was traditionally fought without blade on blade contact (which movies like Highlander foolishly illustrated) it would seem like an even worse idea. Sorry, this is urban legend. Katana is fought with blade on blade contact too, but the contact per se is most of the time a parry followed by a counter. A parry = a deflection of the blade and there is no stop. There are blocks too, but they don't apply to the described scenario because most of the time these blocks are done when inside of the killing zone. |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 26, 2017 0:02:53 GMT
I'd say I read about 5 posts, not including this one. You said that you cannot grab the blade of a katana, that it wouldn't work. I asked why not, as both sword are edged pieces of steel. You stated this is because of it not being taught. No, I stated that in a fight against a longsword a katana guy will not go for grabbing the longsword blade. It will be the last resort as some said - out of desperation/option. This was the context. Oh? So you've changed your mind? Before, you were objecting to the statement that grabbing a longsword blade could work. (Despite modern people showing that it works and the technique appearing in the old fightbooks.) It's quite possible that in a fight against a longsword a katana guy will not go for grabbing the longsword blade. (And, of course, you know what all katana guys will or will not do.) That's an entirely different matter from whether or not it will work. Are you now saying that it can work, but a "katana guy" won't try it (except as a last resort)? Well, you're the great authority on what katana guys will do, so we can just take your word for that, and quit arguing about it. If you're still also saying that no only won't katana guys do it, but that it can't be done, that it won't work, that you can't grab a sharp longsword blade without getting your hand shredded, then there's no point arguing about that, since modern people have shown that it works and the technique appears in the old fightbooks. If hard evidence isn't enough to convince you that it works, nothing will, and your imagination won't outweigh the hard evidence for others, so there's no point arguing about it. I don't think people who do JSA are incapable of learning techniques that people who do HEMA can learn. If a katana guy is going to make a habit of sparring with longsword guys, perhaps it's worth learning. If somebody from JSA trains against a weapon they never faced or learned to face in JSA, and are consistently taken apart, they should learn what to do to stop it that from happening. If they want to maintain JSA purity, they shouldn't fight against people with such weapons. Most of the blade grabs in koryu JSA are last resort stuff, mostly appearing in tachi-dori/muto-dori. Grabbing near the tip to briefly immobilise the blade to give the time to grab the hilt appears in kata (e.g., in Koden Enshin Ryu). A similar idea to grabbing the longsword blade in a bind, but harder to do (both the grab and the follow-up). |
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Post by Derzis on Jan 26, 2017 0:10:32 GMT
I didn't changed my mind. I always said that your version "grab the longword from the tip to enter in the killing zone" is bullsemprini. Go back page 11, and see your own "It works".
I said and say again JSA is not using grabbing the opponent's sword blade like WSA because is not in the spirit and the way the fighting is thought. You want to apply longsword way of thinking to a JSA guy who came here to ask for advise. It works on youtube, in your mind but not in a dojo where that guy belongs.
You like salad too much for my taste. Enjoy your writings from now on.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 26, 2017 0:21:52 GMT
I didn't changed my mind. I always said that your version "grab the longword from the tip to enter in the killing zone" is bullsemprini. Go back page 11, and see your own "It works". I said and say again JSA is not using grabbing the opponent's sword blade like WSA because is not in the spirit and the way the fighting is thought. Modern people have shown that it works and the technique appears in the old fightbooks. If hard evidence isn't enough to convince you that it works, nothing will, and your imagination won't outweigh the hard evidence for others, so there's no point arguing about it. I don't think that "grab the longword from the tip to enter in the killing zone" is accurate. You are already fairly close when in the bind. You grab the longsword blade to briefly immobilise it so that you can safely disengage and hit your opponent. As done with longsword vs longsword, as works with longsword vs longsword. I don't see why using a katana instead of a longsword would suddenly make your opponent's longsword so much more dangerous to grab. |
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Post by Derzis on Jan 26, 2017 0:25:26 GMT
OK, lets define terms:
BIND - For me, tips touching just to feel or trap other's intention might work as definition. It's not something done with steel, just with bokkens or shinais
What's your modern people definition?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 26, 2017 0:53:10 GMT
OK, lets define terms: BIND - For me, tips touching just to feel or trap other's intention might work as definition. It's not something often done with steel, just with bokkens or shinais What's your modern people definition? The modern definition (in HEMA, at least) is the same as the 14th century definition. It isn't tip against tip; it's typically strong against strong. The bind typically results from a cut being blocked - the fighters are in range. That's why they can hit each other by winding, twitching, etc.  Meyer has a fairly clear discussion of the bind, and fighting from the bind. It's explicit that the fighters are within range. |
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