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Post by howler on Jan 25, 2017 8:48:04 GMT
The bind is where the Longsword really shines, as it turns into a two handed, four foot long short spear using a sliding thrust. That may be, but to get the thrust, you have to have your point online, as well as be in range. The katana guy binds the longsword, grabs the tip of the longsword with his non dominant hand, then moves in. OR, enter the bind, then take a step into grappling range before the opponent can wind. Was just pointing out that longsword was made for all day sword on sword which often included binding in duels (with other longswords). Against Katana is different, as Katana was traditionally a dueling sword and not made for blade on blade binding. Katana fights were over in a few moves done in a few seconds, and the blades were made to cut flesh. The general consensus of those responding on this post was that the longsword had some general inherent advantages (please read both my and others reasoning) BUT the individual should choose based on preference, because interest and therefore practice with tool would be what would make the greatest difference. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2017 12:29:08 GMT
There's a fundamental misunderstanding that I've seen at play for years regarding binding. Binding is not strictly a matter of edge on edge. You can bind with anything when you have the right oppositional pressure, directed with the right alignment. You can bind with the front, back, sides of the blade. You can bind with the guard or the handle - what is tsubazeriai if not a bind? You don't even need a sword to bind, push hands is a bind. Crossed forearms can be a bind.
Advantage is relative. One of the reasons to control the weak with the strong isn't just because the base of the blade is thicker, but because of the relative position to the hand allowing you to exert a more direct influence on the other person through the swords.
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Post by Derzis on Jan 25, 2017 12:31:53 GMT
I think that theory is poo without applying it Timo Nieminen. And for what is worth, the theory came after someone started to think about what was already done. You can't put the chariot before the horses just because the teaching process starts with technics and after concepts. Based on your comments I have to ignore them because for you "the details of how they got there" are not important. NO, they are very important. IF you don't know how to get there and apply what you were taught you have no base. Is the simple rule of learning something but I know for you is easy. You know everything about JSA and if not, HEMA helps you because you are teaching others, right? You teach a guy with bokken to grab longsworddish stick. It works, but how about trying to imagine that stick as a longsword sharpened by Wes and tell me you are very keen to grab it when you are with a katana. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2017 12:35:02 GMT
Better not to be touched at all, but needing to get your hand stitched up is still preferable to having the skull cleaved open. Worst case you can live without a hand, right?
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Post by Derzis on Jan 25, 2017 12:39:30 GMT
There's a fundamental misunderstanding that I've seen at play for years regarding binding. Binding is not strictly a matter of edge on edge. You can bind with anything when you have the right oppositional pressure, directed with the right alignment. You can bind with the front, back, sides of the blade. You can bind with the guard or the handle - what is tsuba zerai if not a bind? You don't even need a sword to bind, push hands is a bind. Crossed forearms can be a bind. Advantage is relative. One of the reasons to control use the weak with the strong isn't just because the base of the blade is thicker, but because of the relative position to the hand allowing you to exert a more direct influence on the other person through the swords. It's a fundamental misunderstanding thinking that from binding you will go for a blade grabbing for a katana user. But you do what you please. |
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Post by Derzis on Jan 25, 2017 12:43:10 GMT
Better not to be touched at all, but needing to get your hand stitched up is still preferable to having the skull cleaved open. Worst case you can live without a hand, right? Or worst case scenario you get a cut and you are dead. Too much Hollywood with guys catching flying swords in their empty palms. Or you think the longsword stays and waits for you to do your stuff? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2017 12:49:29 GMT
I might, it all depends on what's going on right then and there. I'm not really keen on grabbing the blade, so it's really far down the line of what I'd probably do, but in a desperate moment nothing is off the table.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2017 12:50:41 GMT
Better not to be touched at all, but needing to get your hand stitched up is still preferable to having the skull cleaved open. Worst case you can live without a hand, right? Or worst case scenario you get a cut and you are dead. Too much Hollywood with guys catching flying swords in their empty palms. Or you think the longsword stays and waits for you to do your stuff? Death from sliced palm is pretty far down the list of likely outcomes. unless you are a balloon animal, I suppose  |
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Post by Derzis on Jan 25, 2017 13:02:03 GMT
Or worst case scenario you get a cut and you are dead. Too much Hollywood with guys catching flying swords in their empty palms. Or you think the longsword stays and waits for you to do your stuff? Death from sliced palm is pretty far down the list of likely outcomes. unless you are a balloon animal, I suppose ;) Man, you really read what was saying here? It was said to use the blade grapping after a bind to enter in the range and stab the longsword owner. Tell me you will do that. No theory and no photo number 6.
PS Scenario discussed:
" Arkhane said: "The katana guy binds the longsword, grabs the tip of the longsword with his non dominant hand, then moves in" "Timo Nieminen said: "It works. Since the katana blade is shorter, it's easier to grab, disengage, and cut or thrust with the katana."
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 25, 2017 13:16:57 GMT
It works, but how about trying to imagine that stick as a longsword sharpened by Wes and tell me you are very keen to grab it. So, because you imagine it can't work, we'll just ignore the old masters who described such techniques. We'll also ignore modern practitioners who have shown it's possible to grab paper-cutting sharp longswords without getting cut. Clearly, your omniscience trumps practical real-life demonstration and what those with experience of real combat with swords wrote. |
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Post by Derzis on Jan 25, 2017 13:20:41 GMT
It works, but how about trying to imagine that stick as a longsword sharpened by Wes and tell me you are very keen to grab it. So, because you imagine it can't work, we'll just ignore the old masters who described such techniques. We'll also ignore modern practitioners who have shown it's possible to grab paper-cutting sharp longswords without getting cut. Clearly, your omniscience trumps practical real-life demonstration and what those with experience of real combat with swords wrote. Show me the JSA source showing the blade grabbing. I don't know who's Trump here, since you think that what works with longsword works with katana. Funny, I am accused of trolling.
PS To make it clear: IF you are not taught how to do it, when to do it, and why you are doing it, you better not do it. The entire JSA survived because they passed down on paper and oral communication the knowledge that covers the 3 points above.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 25, 2017 13:35:58 GMT
Better not to be touched at all, but needing to get your hand stitched up is still preferable to having the skull cleaved open. Worst case you can live without a hand, right? You shouldn't get cut at all. If you give them enough time, they'll twist and pull the blade free, and you'll get cut if that happens. But you shouldn't give them time to do it. It isn't a desperation measure - if it isn't going to work, don't do it; do something else instead. There are blade grabs done as a desperation measure, such as when you can't get out of the way or block/parry with your own sword. That's best avoided. But as you say, needing to get your hand stitched up is still preferable to having the skull cleaved open. These aren't what was suggested here, but a quite different technique, for a quite different purpose. (The most famous person recorded as doing this was Timur the Lame, who got cut to the bone. There are different stories of how his hand was injured, including being hit by an arrow.) |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2017 14:11:51 GMT
Understood, ideally you immobilize the blade for the very brief interval you need to take the opponent out, not hang out all day letting him twist and pull and so forth.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2017 14:46:14 GMT
Death from sliced palm is pretty far down the list of likely outcomes. unless you are a balloon animal, I suppose ;) Man, you really read what was saying here? It was said to use the blade grapping after a bind to enter in the range and stab the longsword owner. Tell me you will do that. No theory and no photo number 6. No, I did read it and hope my little humor wasn't recieved poorly, not trying to be a jerk. At the moment of bind the sword is not in motion. There is an instant where you can seize the blade. You can't just grab it and check facebook update status or book cheap flights on your phone, but you have a small window to do whatever you were going to follow with, kill disarm whatever. In the end you either do right or wrong and there's so much that can affect the correct actions. I've seen my sempai do some legitimately scary things they were taught, that if I had the choice I would grab 10,000 blades before wanting to try that maneuver. Do I just refuse to learn because I don't like it and it runs counter to my assumptions and preferences? |
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Post by Derzis on Jan 25, 2017 15:01:19 GMT
Jon, your sempai is doing those things because he experimented them years. There are not scary things. Even noto with a shinken is a scary thing - especially when you are doing it Okuden style: the blade touches briefly the koiguchi right below the monouchi and down the saia goes. You have to do that all the time? Not really, but you better learn it. I am not against learning things, I am against "monkey see monkey do" without the when? the where? and the why?.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2017 15:13:11 GMT
Jon, your sempai is doing those things because he experimented them years. There are not scary things. Even noto with a shinken is a scary thing - especially when you are doing it Okuden style: the blade touches briefly the koiguchi right below the monouchi and down the saia goes. You have to do that all the time? Not really, but you better learn it. I am not against learning things, I am against "monkey see monkey do" without the when? the where? and the why?. I agree with you here. I am very against the idea of salad bar martial arts where people grab whatever looks nice to them without a context. Almost anything can work, but there's a reason why and a context it works in, otherwise we may as well flail and hope for the best. Maybe you get lucky, but I don't want to have to count on luck. |
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Post by Cosmoline on Jan 25, 2017 18:03:49 GMT
The time to grab the tip would be if the LS is in a static long point. This has to be done decisively and fast enough they won't notice. A mid-measure bind would be more likely to lead to winding than viable grabbing, but I do remember options of seizing the blades together at the point of the bind and going into a disarm and wrestling.
If you want to bind and grab, I would recommend binding him well off to his left side while moving in. This creates a beat of control where you can seize with the inverted left hand and wrench the blade free while performing a bogen deflection with the katana. We discovered this move in I.33 and have since used it in full speed sparring. It works very well. BUT if you were to try something like this against a bind in front of your face, you won't be able to prevent the treadthrough or winden. Nor will you be able to control the center.
In a classic longsword bind the swords are VERY MUCH in motion. The attacker learns by muscle memory and thousands of drills to flow through or around the point of binding. Standing there looking at each other like Hollywood actors is very strongly discouraged. I got hit with a stick for doing it. You would need to actually block the incoming blade outside the center, where he cannot wind and both of your blades are out of martial threat position. You essentially give up your own option to wind in order to neutralize his, then your hand comes in for the grab.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2017 18:45:50 GMT
Then you're trying to catch a falling knife?
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Post by Derzis on Jan 25, 2017 19:10:16 GMT
He wants to say that the best time for blade grabbing happens when you already evaded an attack - after binding or not - and you are using the inertia of your opponent to put your hand on the blade safely AND you want to transform the sword fighting in a wrestling game. The last part is the most important one. You can grab the sword in less perfect condition in 3 cases:
1. you have hand protection (some steel gloves will do)
2. when you realize the opponent's sword is blunt-(ish). But since nobody said anything about using your vision to understand the damages/condition of the opponent's blade this point is up in the air. Is nothing written in the books about using your senses to understand things, nor about how sharp the blades really were. 3. when your opponent is not ontop of his game or he is way below your skill level.
PS It is the 4th too
4. When you are doing social sparring with wooden swords. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2017 20:13:43 GMT
Wow, I could see making use of this immediately after arresting the swords movement in a flash instant but otherwise this strikes me as very foolhardy. I'll give a lot of things the benefit of the doubt, especially for the sake of conversation, but there's a limit. If you need special gear or a bad opponent, I'm stepping away.
By the way your message deserves a reply, I did see it by the way and appreciate your thoughts as always!
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