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Post by 1776 on Aug 17, 2016 4:37:09 GMT
I've seen some guys beat the heck out of some Bucks, like this guy here: Is this normal for a Buck to stand this abuse? Would a Buck 119 special be a good choice for a bushcraft knife? I really like the looks of these knives, and the price tag is good too. How tough are they? Are you able to baton with them and not worry about breaking the knife? Thanks
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Aug 17, 2016 4:42:42 GMT
Buck knives are tough, any knife you do a lot of batoning with might break. Just carry a light weight axe.
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Post by vinland on Aug 17, 2016 6:33:52 GMT
They're tough, but batoning will break any knife eventually. I agree with L Driggers, carry a light axe as well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 7:29:08 GMT
He knows his knife and he explained such use fairly clearly. You can see the flex, you can notice his repeated caveats and careful prying with the tip. I am not sure how much time some might watch videos in lieu of practical experience but either way, a good measure of common sense is helpful. I have broken enough blades doing stupid things to make me think it will never happen again but I am sure I won't be too surprised the next time The 119 and the 120 are large knives, with the 120 geared more for heavier use but both have cross sections not really ideal for chopping down trees. The builds overall are fairly stout. Just chopping would be fine and batoning within reality and the caveats the fellow mentions probably won't break the blade but batoning and prying aren't likely to get you a replacement under warranty. That said, with the general flood of knives out there, it gets a bit subjective. While I am pretty well fixed for any occasion, I had spent the past few years accumulating older inexpensive knives that are fairly bulletproof. Now with a horde of these, they still turn up at decent prices. Good using knives from 70 years ago. www.ebay.com/itm/112088716844?I like the old Western brand knives, as the tangs are extra strong. Those are getting pricy though. The "Black Beauty" examples by them terrific. With a sharp blade, you can cut down a tree with a pocket knife, given time. Buck often paired a 110 with a hatchet in a single scabbard. Others have as well and a smart rig for a regular camper, or for a bug out bag.
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Post by 1776 on Aug 18, 2016 2:57:10 GMT
They're tough, but batoning will break any knife eventually. I agree with L Driggers, carry a light axe as well. Wow. Is that an ESEE knife?
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Post by 1776 on Aug 18, 2016 3:02:25 GMT
Buck often paired a 110 with a hatchet in a single scabbard. Others have as well and a smart rig for a regular camper, or for a bug out bag. I LIKE that idea! I'm going to do that. Pair a knife and a small hatchet in a single scabbard. Awesome idea. Thanks
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Post by vinland on Aug 18, 2016 9:07:57 GMT
I believe that's an Ontario rtak. Just search for batoning failures and you'll find countless images of broken knives stuck in logs.
I'll take a mora knife and gransfors bruks axe over a large knife trying to be both an axe and knife any day in my climate
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Aug 18, 2016 10:28:07 GMT
Isn't is strange most the time the blade breaks in a half shape out of the blade.
I would want a knife made of 5160 steel if I was going to use it for batoning.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 18:08:37 GMT
Meant a Buck 105 (iirc) not a 110 folder but you get the idea. Case and Ka-Bar had combo sets.
Two bulletproof large knives I have are a Gerber BMF and a smaller DeLeon in 34ATS.
The BMF is simply too big for best overall utility but a knife that can do just about anything. A 440 series stainless but hard enough that it comes with a diamond stone attached to the scabbard. The DeLeon not really suited to batoning but a thick seven inch blade that isn't going to break easily. I had hacked up a thick hard plastic shelf with it to see what the edge was like.
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Post by howler on Aug 19, 2016 1:18:45 GMT
I believe that's an Ontario rtak. Just search for batoning failures and you'll find countless images of broken knives stuck in logs. I'll take a mora knife and gransfors bruks axe over a large knife trying to be both an axe and knife any day in my climate No reason on Gods green Earth not to carry a mora. Really, you carry the mora, a larger knife that can kind of do it all, and the axe.
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Post by 1776 on Aug 19, 2016 4:01:47 GMT
Yep, got a mora. Super good knife. Beat the heck out of it. Thanks guys
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Post by bluetrain on Sept 26, 2016 13:20:35 GMT
A small hand axe used to be considered essential for woodcraft but that no longer seems to be the case, primarily because we're reached the limit of cutting down trees in a lot of places, so they're not as useful as they one were. Another reason might be because small, lightweight hand axes or hatchets are rather scarce on the ground. I realize Granfors makes a "tiny" axe that is pretty much what I'm referring to but it's dreadfully expensive, at least by my standards. There's someone else that makes them, too, but I don't remember who it is but it is affordable. (It's Condor Tool & Knife scout hatchet).
On the other hand, I don't really know how useful those "pocket axes" are, never having used one. Even an axe can be fairly specialized, you know. When I was in forestry school, everyone had to have their own competition axe, for instance. Personally, I think a Hudson's Bay pattern axe is just about right for an all-round axe, assuming you aren't planning to do a lot of tree felling, firewood splitting or squaring up logs for a cabin. It will do all of those things, just not very well and other axes will work better. If you burn wood for heat or cooking in a stove, you probably already have a decent axe for splitting and you know it wouldn't be your first choice to take on a backpacking trip, if you even took an axe. But a backpacking trip is not exactly an exercise in survivalism. Which leads us back to your all-purpose Buck knife that you never leave home without.
Any knife that actually gets used is going to show it. Is it okay to pound on a Buck knife when you forgot to bring along a axe, any axe (can't bring myself to say "baton")? Sure! That's why you have it instead of a $2 paring knife, which I carry daily instead. It's in my lunch bag with two other knives, a can opener, a fork and spool and yet another knife, a Swiss Army-type knife. The fork gets used more than everything else put together, so I'd suggest buying a fork before you go looking for a pocket axe.
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Post by howler on Sept 26, 2016 21:01:07 GMT
They're tough, but batoning will break any knife eventually. I agree with L Driggers, carry a light axe as well. Your point (carry both) is valid, but there are also pictures of axes breaking. Not saying robust knives are tougher (axes are), only that a baton worthy knife is a good thing, and that it would be "enough" in certain situations where an axe would be heavy/excessive overkill.
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Post by howler on Sept 26, 2016 21:52:36 GMT
A small hand axe used to be considered essential for woodcraft but that no longer seems to be the case, primarily because we're reached the limit of cutting down trees in a lot of places, so they're not as useful as they one were. Another reason might be because small, lightweight hand axes or hatchets are rather scarce on the ground. I realize Granfors makes a "tiny" axe that is pretty much what I'm referring to but it's dreadfully expensive, at least by my standards. There's someone else that makes them, too, but I don't remember who it is but it is affordable. On the other hand, I don't really know how useful those "pocket axes" are, never having used one. Even an axe can be fairly specialized, you know. When I was in forestry school, everyone had to have their own competition axe, for instance. Personally, I think a Hudson's Bay pattern axe is just about right for an all-round axe, assuming you aren't planning to do a lot of tree felling, firewood splitting or squaring up logs for a cabin. It will do all of those things, just not very well and other axes will work better. If you burn wood for heat or cooking in a stove, you probably already have a decent axe for splitting and you know it wouldn't be your first choice to take on a backpacking trip, if you even took an axe. But a backpacking trip is not exactly an exercise in survivalism. Which leads us back to your all-purpose Buck knife that you never leave home without. Any knife that actually gets used is going to show it. Is it okay to pound on a Buck knife when you forgot to bring along a axe, any axe (can't bring myself to say "baton")? Sure! That's why you have it instead of a $2 paring knife, which I carry daily instead. It's in my lunch bag with two other knives, a can opener, a fork and spool and yet another knife, a Swiss Army-type knife. The fork gets used more than everything else put together, so I'd suggest buying a fork before you go looking for a pocket axe. I've been into axes lately (having purchased the Husqvarna line...Hultafors/made by Hults Bruks-hatchet, carpenter, forest), and have been analyzing/comparing/contrasting them with other axes, machete, large knife, etc... Even the heavy Husqvarna hatchet (around 35oz. at 15 1/2") can be used two handed and can obliterate any large knife at getting into large ice/bark covered wood sources. It is the "small" hatchet (under 1 1/2lbs. total weight...like the Fiskars X7) that is of interest, when compared to a large knife/machete. The X7 can still be used two handed (the advantage of an axe being you can grab the entire handle) but the head weight (even though concentrated at the end) reduces the power considerably. A comparable large knife (like the Ontario Gen ll, sp-53) has a long cutting edge, and can be utilized for machete and camp knife tasks with more versatile ability, its 1/4" saber ground blade is made of 5160 steel (perhaps the finest ever produced), making a damn good baton tool. When you get into the pure one handed hatchets, it seems these are an acquired skill, taking much more time to master than a long knife, so I think the long knife would be a better choice. The boys axe and carpenters (both around 3lb. total weight) are obviously another animal entirely, and in some environments, you would be a lunatic to take one or the other (long knife only in frozen winter forest or 3lb. axe only in light bush desert).
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Post by demonskull on Sept 26, 2016 22:41:35 GMT
I bought my brother a 119 over 40 years ago. He used it all the time. From the Adirondecks to the Grand Canyon, it's seen it all. My brother is gone but his daughter still has the knife.
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Post by bluetrain on Sept 26, 2016 22:45:32 GMT
I still think you would nearly always want to have a good all-round knife, which should be able to stand up to being some pounding . What constitutes a good all-round knife is another question but I suspect the knife in the original question is as good as any, though perhaps a little lighter than some would like (not familiar with that model in particular). Frankly, I can't imagine needing to split very much wood like that but perhaps I'm confused as to what bushcraft is.
Another problem is that a machete or long knife cannot really be substituted for an axe (or hatchet) or vice versa. But that's a different issue.
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Post by howler on Sept 27, 2016 1:16:48 GMT
I still think you would nearly always want to have a good all-round knife, which should be able to stand up to being some pounding . What constitutes a good all-round knife is another question but I suspect the knife in the original question is as good as any, though perhaps a little lighter than some would like (not familiar with that model in particular). Frankly, I can't imagine needing to split very much wood like that but perhaps I'm confused as to what bushcraft is. Another problem is that a machete or long knife cannot really be substituted for an axe (or hatchet) or vice versa. But that's a different issue. Yeah, getting into what would constitute a light, generally two handed axe is another tool entirely, and completely separate from a knife. The light hatchet (under 1 1/2lb. total weight) is the only thing that can be compared to a knife, as the heavy hatchet (over 2-2 1/4lbs) is so much more powerful. The light 3/4 or boys/bush axe with 26" length...like the Husky forest and over 2lb. head and 20" length...like the Husky carpenter) are just completely different animals, as they weigh around 3lb.s total, with all the advantages (and disadvantages) that gives. You are dead right that you really should have a nice fixed blade on you (and even a SAK or small multi in your pocket), regardless of whether you wish to carry something more, be it large bush knife/light hatchet, heavy hatchet, 3lb. total weight axe. It just isn't an either/or question.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Sept 27, 2016 1:31:08 GMT
Surprised no one said this (maybe cause everyone is sick of it popping up in these threads): but a nice, thick kukri is always great for these jobs. Can even be a small one, as long as it's thick. Would do great for batoning and such.
I've also used my condor machete during camping. Did fantastically for log splitting. As did my old Windlass Assam Kukri.
I have a buck knife, but with its wicked clip point, I wouldn't baton with it. I got the condor for that
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Post by howler on Sept 27, 2016 8:24:08 GMT
Surprised no one said this (maybe cause everyone is sick of it popping up in these threads): but a nice, thick kukri is always great for these jobs. Can even be a small one, as long as it's thick. Would do great for batoning and such. I've also used my condor machete during camping. Did fantastically for log splitting. As did my old Windlass Assam Kukri. I have a buck knife, but with its wicked clip point, I wouldn't baton with it. I got the condor for that I think the last 20 years or so has seen the emergence of heavy (thick bladed) tools from other countries, that can be used like Hudson Bay knife in Canada or Bowie in America. Kukri, Barong, Golok, Parang, Bolo, etc..., with long blades, but the weight of a small hatchet. With equal weight, small hatchet will always have more pure chopping power (as all the weight is in the head), but there is a great versatility in something that can still chop, but has 3-6 times more cutting area. Longer, lighter machete also have uses. It seems there was something of a "baton revolution", so to speak, and these heavier long blades gained even more attention. A kukri that weighs as much as a light hatchet is a very interesting tool for those who like its feel. There are some that I have heard who do not like the feel of a kukri (it is strange to them), but I haven't used one enough to judge for myself, though I have a few Kukri like objects that seem very nice.
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Post by bluetrain on Sept 27, 2016 10:33:48 GMT
What's a Hudson Bay knife?
Not to move away from the original question but a lot depends on where you are (or are going to be) and what you expect to be doing. If you're in the desert, a knife is sufficient because there is no use for anything else. I can see how a short and heavy machete (it might not be called that) or extra heavy survival knife could take the place of a hand axe very easily but not a larger axe that you might want to do some chopping with. It's just a question of efficiency. But if you're going to be in thick brush or what used to be called jungle (it's a rain forest now), a regular machete is much handier and even those come in different sizes and shapes, presumably for a reason. The British used to issue a short and thick machete (the name of which I can't remember now) in the 1950s but it had a rough handle and some would say it was too short. In any event, an axe or hatchet would be poor substitutes for an ordinary machete. I can also see how a kukri would make a good heavy duty knife, which is exactly what it is. They are also available in various sizes and a longer one would come close to substituting for a machete. Of course, all of these things overlap to some degree, which makes it interesting.
You would also want to bring along a small file and a sharpening stone, just like if you were going to work with a scythe. That's another fairly specialized cutting tool that I'll bet no one has mentioned here before.
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