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Post by bluetrain on Aug 29, 2016 19:45:05 GMT
I've never been shot, not yet anyway, but I've been hit enough by other things to know that in some cases you will at least be mightily distracted for a few minutes, to say the least. If you are hit hard enough on the head, you will go down very quickly (which is what I call "knock-down power") but that leads to the question, how hard is hard enough. It is a fact of life that some people are simply more used to being hit a lot than other people and they will take more punishment before the decide to call the whole thing off. But most people learn that pretty early on, unless they've led a better life than I have, which is not to say I've experienced all that much in life.
Animals are a different story. I've seen a bull literally drop like his legs were chopped off and that bull had been chased all over before he was coaxed into standing still for a moment. A bull is a domestic animal, too. I suspect the more dangerous wild animals will take a little more killing before they would drop like that bull did, probably because they don't know any better.
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Post by howler on Aug 30, 2016 8:22:39 GMT
I've never been shot, not yet anyway, but I've been hit enough by other things to know that in some cases you will at least be mightily distracted for a few minutes, to say the least. If you are hit hard enough on the head, you will go down very quickly (which is what I call "knock-down power") but that leads to the question, how hard is hard enough. It is a fact of life that some people are simply more used to being hit a lot than other people and they will take more punishment before the decide to call the whole thing off. But most people learn that pretty early on, unless they've led a better life than I have, which is not to say I've experienced all that much in life. Animals are a different story. I've seen a bull literally drop like his legs were chopped off and that bull had been chased all over before he was coaxed into standing still for a moment. A bull is a domestic animal, too. I suspect the more dangerous wild animals will take a little more killing before they would drop like that bull did, probably because they don't know any better. The "knock-down" kinetic energy neuro shock cannot be relied on primarily for incapacitation (though it is a very nice added ability). Some of the "two legged animals" could be on drugs, along with all the other stuff you mentioned. You want the largest, most penetrating stuff you can handle for bears (unless your in Africa...then you'll need if for almost everything). Bottom line, you would do pretty good for everything but browns with the .357 (browns need .44 or more). |
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Post by bluetrain on Aug 30, 2016 12:05:11 GMT
If I were someplace where there were brown bears, I'd be sure to take along something bigger than a handgun. Of course, you would always be sure of having a handgun with you, at least in theory.
Fairbairn stated that the more he learned about shooting people, the less sure he was about anything. He also said that the closer a handgun was to a submachine gun, the happier he was. His first choice was a .45 automatic.
A big difference between animals and people, mostly, is that most people are conditioned to react a certain way when injured--if they actually realize they've been injured. But at the same time, other factors can override both that conditioning as well as the physiological aspect of an injury. All of those factors are next to impossible to measure or quantify, too, but typically people will suggest that drugs would be a factor. That may be true but I tend to discount that factor. People are full of surprises. Some people are full of other stuff.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Aug 30, 2016 14:40:52 GMT
So I guess what we really need to look out for is a brown bear on drugs. I think I'll just play if safe, so the next time I go into the woods where there might be some brown bears on drugs I'm bringing a RPG. Just make sure your hiking partner isn't standing behide you.   |
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Post by howler on Aug 30, 2016 21:16:07 GMT
So I guess what we really need to look out for is a brown bear on drugs. I think I'll just play if safe, so the next time I go into the woods where there might be some brown bears on drugs I'm bringing a RPG. Just make sure your hiking partner isn't standing behide you. What kind of drugs the brown bear is on is the big question. Brown bear on weed (hippy bear)...he may let you rub his tummy (but watch out for "the munchies). Brown bear on LSD/PCP/bath salt/meth cocktail (Michael Myers/Friday the 13th bear)...RPG. |
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Aug 31, 2016 1:10:57 GMT
So I use two different guns for my hiking/woods guns.
A S&W 686+ 7 shot 357 mag 4 inch barrel. A very sold, heavy pistol an extra rd and a pretty solid rd. I also sometimes carry a Sig Sauer 226 TacOps in 40sw. I carry that one if I'm going to be out at night because I have a weaponlight mounted.
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Post by howler on Aug 31, 2016 1:58:29 GMT
So I use two different guns for my hiking/woods guns. A S&W 686+ 7 shot 357 mag 4 inch barrel. A very sold, heavy pistol an extra rd and a pretty solid rd. I also sometimes carry a Sig Sauer 226 TacOps in 40sw. I carry that one if I'm going to be out at night because I have a weaponlight mounted. That is a great combo of wheel and semi, and very similar to my collection. My semi (Glock 22 and Kahr P40...both in .40) and revolver S&W627pro 8 shot .357 mag 4"brl. (N frame) and Ruger sp101 5 shot 3"brl. |
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Aug 31, 2016 23:23:57 GMT
So I use two different guns for my hiking/woods guns. A S&W 686+ 7 shot 357 mag 4 inch barrel. A very sold, heavy pistol an extra rd and a pretty solid rd. I also sometimes carry a Sig Sauer 226 TacOps in 40sw. I carry that one if I'm going to be out at night because I have a weaponlight mounted. That is a great combo of wheel and semi, and very similar to my collection. My semi (Glock 22 and Kahr P40...both in .40) and revolver S&W627pro 8 shot .357 mag 4"brl. (N frame) and Ruger sp101 5 shot 3"brl. I *HAD* a Ruger SP101 3 inch barrel a while back... GREAT gun. I miss it. |
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Post by howler on Sept 1, 2016 3:24:25 GMT
That is a great combo of wheel and semi, and very similar to my collection. My semi (Glock 22 and Kahr P40...both in .40) and revolver S&W627pro 8 shot .357 mag 4"brl. (N frame) and Ruger sp101 5 shot 3"brl. I *HAD* a Ruger SP101 3 inch barrel a while back... GREAT gun. I miss it. I've heard that firearm called the "everything gun", as it can step into so many roles. Perhaps the ultimate "1st gun"...or "only handgun" for people who want to own a firearm but don't think they will be practicing all the time. |
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Post by bluetrain on Sept 1, 2016 11:22:45 GMT
My choice was and still would be, were I still as interested in shooting as I once was, a S&W K-frame with a 3" barrel in .357, although other K-frames are perfectly satisfactory. The best variation I had was what I think was called the Model 65-LS. I also had a Model 10 with an under-lugged 3 1/4 (might have been 3 1/2) barrel in .38 special, which was an unusual combination of features.
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Post by howler on Sept 1, 2016 22:57:20 GMT
My choice was and still would be, were I still as interested in shooting as I once was, a S&W K-frame with a 3" barrel in .357, although other K-frames are perfectly satisfactory. The best variation I had was what I think was called the Model 65-LS. I also had a Model 10 with an under-lugged 3 1/4 (might have been 3 1/2) barrel in .38 special, which was an unusual combination of features. Now, correct me, Blue, but I heard there were some issues with firing the hotter .357 with those K-frames, and that was the reason for the L (a fantastic model, btw), made in the early 80's. That little Ruger (though having 1 less round) is built like a brick poop house. So, under OUTDOOR (big animal) conditions, I might want that Ruger, but for two legged city creeps, S&W. If someone came up to me and offered me a choice of either gun for free...are you kidding me, that Smith...all day long (great gun). |
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Post by bluetrain on Sept 2, 2016 10:54:54 GMT
That is what I understand, too, and I did have an L-frame, too, along about the same time. It had a four-inch under-lugged barrel and bead blasted stainless steel finish. It was also one of the first models, I think, that came with a round butt as standard. It actually seemed little different from a K-frame. But I never fired .357 rounds that much, as there was no real reason to. An L-frame cylinder is the same size as the old Colt DA revolvers, which model I don't know, but it was the OP series and all that came after it.
A funny thing is the way S&W made larger revolvers so they would be stronger, then they go and make more chambers in the cylinder, which seems like it would make it weaker. At one time the N-frame (or S-frame) was available in .38 Special. I also recall, though, that Skeeter Skelton pointed out that just because a certain model was listed in the S&W catalog, like the large frame .38s and large frame fixed sight .44s and .45s, that didn't mean you would actually be able to find one in a store, at least not where he lived.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 2, 2016 13:03:56 GMT
I used .38 Specials and reduced .357 loads in my K frame. Nice pistol but didn’t trust it with maximum loads. While I found the.357 best all around cartridge for me I have a great fondness, my favourite calibre, are .45s regardless of chambering, .45 ACP, Rim, Colt, and .455. Now that Webley, actually it was a Webley-Greener and not an issue revolver, was some pistol. I have forgotten the year of manufacture but around the turn of the 20th century. The lieutenant’s name that purchased it was engraved on the frame. It was a real pain to load for because I had to rework the brass. I did find some ammo in the original sealed box at a gun show but no way was I going to use that stuff. I loved shooting it. It was as smooth as silk.
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Post by bluetrain on Sept 2, 2016 15:29:46 GMT
I believe a K-frame should be safe with any normal factory .357 load, which itself should be considered a maximum load. There are of course, those outfits that believe that Remingon's, Federal,s and other factory loads is the starting point for their own ideal load, and that's for any cartridge. I don't believe anything is gained by using the extra hot ammunition. On the other hand, a +P .38 special will not blow up an older K-frame, either, although there's no reason to shoot +P ammunition in older revolvers. That's just my opinion, though.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Sept 2, 2016 17:12:42 GMT
If you shoot a lot of full power factory 357mag loads in a K frame you will shoot it a part. I know I've done it.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 2, 2016 18:30:05 GMT
If you shoot a lot of full power factory 357mag loads in a K frame you will shoot it a part. I know I've done it. I’ve heard several similar first hand stories. As I used the K frame only for paper punching and plinking there was no need to step it up. The main reason I bought it was that I thought a smaller frame than a N would be nice and it spent much of its life in my safe, I wasn’t that impressed after getting it. Thinking back on it I think that I got it at a special price which helped in the decision making. |
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Post by howler on Sept 2, 2016 21:36:15 GMT
That is what I understand, too, and I did have an L-frame, too, along about the same time. It had a four-inch under-lugged barrel and bead blasted stainless steel finish. It was also one of the first models, I think, that came with a round butt as standard. It actually seemed little different from a K-frame. But I never fired .357 rounds that much, as there was no real reason to. An L-frame cylinder is the same size as the old Colt DA revolvers, which model I don't know, but it was the OP series and all that came after it. A funny thing is the way S&W made larger revolvers so they would be stronger, then they go and make more chambers in the cylinder, which seems like it would make it weaker. At one time the N-frame (or S-frame) was available in .38 Special. I also recall, though, that Skeeter Skelton pointed out that just because a certain model was listed in the S&W catalog, like the large frame .38s and large frame fixed sight .44s and .45s, that didn't mean you would actually be able to find one in a store, at least not where he lived. Ironically, the N frame (in .357) was the start of the magnum class in 1935 with the "Registered Magnum". Hugely popular with the FBI (expensive, custom barrel length), Patton's "killing gun", and a must with the highway patrol in the models 27,28. Of course, as the topic of this thread is woods gun (if taking larger animals into account), you would really want a hot 180 grain hard cast for bear, so a k would not be ideal in this application. Actually, if your only using it for packing, Ruger has an sp101 with 4" barrel. I have an older brother who got an L-frame when they first came out with all the bells and whistles for a few hundred or something (lucky SOB). Today, your paying way into the $600's for a dang Ruger gp100...WHOAH!?! |
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Post by scottw on Oct 5, 2016 22:21:10 GMT
Don't take a 9mm, or a .45 acp, into the woods for defense against a bear, black or brown. That's some pretty terrible advice. If you're worried about black bears, take a .44 magnum. Nothing smaller. A .357 is most certainly the smallest acceptable calibur, but why take the little one? Shooting at a bear with a 9mm, or a .45, is suicidal. As an example, I watched a friend put three rounds of .45 acp in a large wild pig. It ran off. I saw the rounds hit. A .45 is a man killer, it won't penetrate a bear reliably. A nine will, but it's tiny. A bear will eat your face off if you shoot it with a 9mm..
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harrybeck
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Post by harrybeck on Oct 5, 2016 23:24:23 GMT
Don't bother trying to run, brownies can outrun a horse. I used to carry a smith mod 25 in 45colt. 600drou do and good pistol. You could also try one of those big single actions in 45-70.
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 5, 2016 23:57:49 GMT
Colt used to advertise that their .38 Super was capable of killing any animal in North America, although they never claimed there was nothing better. Some white hunters used to use relatively small (rifle) cartridges on elephant but they knew what they were doing and, probably, doing it under rather more favorable circumstance. Under the assumptions generally made in this thread, no ordinary rifle cartridge is capable of killing an elephant.
I would feel well-armed with a .357 revolver or even a .38 Super, which I actually like more. But the problem is, in these discussions, we assume away the real difficulties. Chiefly that difficulty is in actually hitting the target and moreover, on bears, the target isn't exactly that well defined. The head is not made of cast iron either and should be easily penetrated. That's based on examination of a total of one bear skull, however. It is of course not very big at all and shaped like a tank turret, so it probably shouldn't be the target anyway.
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