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Post by 1776 on Aug 12, 2016 19:59:13 GMT
Hello, I've been thinking for a while now about getting a handgun to take with me when I go hunting and hiking in the woods. I live pretty much in the Idaho panhandle (USA), and we have wolves, cougars, black and grizzly bears. Not so much on the Grizzly bears where I'm at, but they are making a come back. The question is, what should I take with me when in the outdoors? I could take my shotgun loaded with slugs. But it sure is pretty heavy and large. I might try a pistol grip... I do actually carry my shotgun when I'm hiking in places with low amounts of people. But I think I'd freak people out if I carried it on a trail that has lots of people that use it. Also, it's pretty hard to carry TWO long guns when hunting. Now, I didn't think about doing a pistol grip. That might be a good answer. But unless I carried it over my shoulder all the time I would put it down at some time, and might even forget it totally. And if I carried it over my shoulder it would be pretty slow to draw, I think. I'm also looking at getting a job as a park ranger, and I'm not sure they would like me carrying a shotgun wherever I went. So I'm wondering about a handgun. I know shot placement is THE key when shooting anything, and that includes grizzly bears too. So I'm looking for a handgun that is easy for me to shoot accurately. I've shot my 9mm full size semi-auto, and I loved it. Felt like a .22 to me. I could have shot that gun all day. It was awesome. I shot a .45acp large frame S&W revolver once. Can't really remember how the recoil was, just that it bit my finger. I also shot a .45 ACP full size semi-auto, and I liked that. I think it was a metal frame, can't remember. Long of the short, I don't have much experience with handguns, so I need help. How is the recoil on a .357 magnum full sized revolver like a Ruger gp100? I'm talking something like a 5inch barrel. How does it feel compared to the 9mm and the .45 ACP? Oh, what about the Glock 20 in 10mm also?
Thanks
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ghost
Member
Posts: 1,323
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Post by ghost on Aug 17, 2016 17:50:00 GMT
G20 gen4 would be a good and practical compromise. You'd prob want buffalo bore or something pretty hefty. 15rds is comforting. Had a gen3. Walked the woods with it a couple of times...definitely a weight.
Bear spray seems more practical with a g19 for comfy hikes. Seems much lighter. Without a rifle, the spray seems more proven than handguns...at least vs bigguns
S&w makes a 329pd scandium frame 44mag...but heard the recoil is sinister.
45-70 marlin scout might cover u for hunting and baaaeer during rifle season. I might pick up 1 myself
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Aug 17, 2016 18:56:04 GMT
My little sister shoots a S&W 357 magnum and she stands about 4' 11" and about a 125 lbs with no trouble with the recoil. Keep in mind you can also shoot a 38 special out of it if you don't have any 357's available.
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Post by howler on Aug 17, 2016 20:01:50 GMT
My little sister shoots a S&W 357 magnum and she stands about 4' 11" and about a 125 lbs with no trouble with the recoil. Keep in mind you can also shoot a 38 special out of it if you don't have any 357's available. I like the wheel guns. Something about knowing when you pull the trigger and there is a dud round...you just pull again (no malfunction drills to do when YOUR potentially on the menu). In the lower 48, I think the 357, 10mm, 45acp...or even a hot 40S&W would work. Grizzly are the real worry, so a 44 would be much better for them. Without Grizz in the equation, a 357 is pretty good. I have a 5 shot Ruger SP101 with 3" brl. which is better to pack, but if there is more worry, then my S&W 627pro 4"brl. 8 shot is better. Really, it isn't the four legged animal that is the main threat but the two legged...walking in on a weed grow or just running into a few bad apples. I might go spear for the animals, and mouse gun for the human creeps.
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Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,624
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Aug 17, 2016 20:15:30 GMT
My little sister shoots a S&W 357 magnum and she stands about 4' 11" and about a 125 lbs with no trouble with the recoil. Keep in mind you can also shoot a 38 special out of it if you don't have any 357's available. This. I think a .357 mag. r evolver is a good, versatile weapon to haul around outdoors. A shotgun would be my first choice, but if size and concealment are a factor a .357 is the way to go.
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Post by 1776 on Aug 18, 2016 2:54:51 GMT
G20 gen4 would be a good and practical compromise. You'd prob want buffalo bore or something pretty hefty. 15rds is comforting. Had a gen3. Walked the woods with it a couple of times...definitely a weight. Bear spray seems more practical with a g19 for comfy hikes. Seems much lighter. Without a rifle, the spray seems more proven than handguns...at least vs bigguns S&w makes a 329pd scandium frame 44mag...but heard the recoil is sinister. 45-70 marlin scout might cover u for hunting and baaaeer during rifle season. I might pick up 1 myself Yep, Buffalo Bore all the way. I got a 9mm, and talked to a guy who said a 9mm would work just as well as a .357 mag on animals. He said penetration was the same on both calibers. Penetration and hitting vitals being the most important, using a 9mm for black bear and under seemed like it would work. Here is some 9mm from Buffalo Bore that I guy up in alaska used to stop a grizzly. www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388 Now, I don't think I would want to use a 9mm against a grizzly. But that does make me think that the ammo would work against black bear. Here is what Buffalo Bore said on the matter: "The 9MM OUTDOORSMAN is the round that we recommend for defense against cougars, wolves and even black bears out of a full-sized semi-auto 9MM. If a 9MM is all you have for protection against a grizzly then the OUTDOORSMAN is the round we would recommend for that also; however, we would encourage you to use a much larger caliber for grizzlies. The 357 and 10MM guns you mention would provide better defenses against grizzlies but, we would recommend even larger calibers beginning with the 44 Mag and even larger and more powerful rounds. Yes, the story about using the 9MM OUTDOORSMAN to stop an aggressive grizzly in Alaska is a fascinating and true story but, we do not recommend using a 9MM sized gun to stop grizzlies." And what do you mean that bear spray seems more proven than handguns?
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Post by howler on Aug 18, 2016 9:00:54 GMT
G20 gen4 would be a good and practical compromise. You'd prob want buffalo bore or something pretty hefty. 15rds is comforting. Had a gen3. Walked the woods with it a couple of times...definitely a weight. Bear spray seems more practical with a g19 for comfy hikes. Seems much lighter. Without a rifle, the spray seems more proven than handguns...at least vs bigguns S&w makes a 329pd scandium frame 44mag...but heard the recoil is sinister. 45-70 marlin scout might cover u for hunting and baaaeer during rifle season. I might pick up 1 myself Yep, Buffalo Bore all the way. I got a 9mm, and talked to a guy who said a 9mm would work just as well as a .357 mag on animals. He said penetration was the same on both calibers. Penetration and hitting vitals being the most important, using a 9mm for black bear and under seemed like it would work. Here is some 9mm from Buffalo Bore that I guy up in alaska used to stop a grizzly. www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388 Now, I don't think I would want to use a 9mm against a grizzly. But that does make me think that the ammo would work against black bear. Here is what Buffalo Bore said on the matter: "The 9MM OUTDOORSMAN is the round that we recommend for defense against cougars, wolves and even black bears out of a full-sized semi-auto 9MM. If a 9MM is all you have for protection against a grizzly then the OUTDOORSMAN is the round we would recommend for that also; however, we would encourage you to use a much larger caliber for grizzlies. The 357 and 10MM guns you mention would provide better defenses against grizzlies but, we would recommend even larger calibers beginning with the 44 Mag and even larger and more powerful rounds. Yes, the story about using the 9MM OUTDOORSMAN to stop an aggressive grizzly in Alaska is a fascinating and true story but, we do not recommend using a 9MM sized gun to stop grizzlies." And what do you mean that bear spray seems more proven than handguns? Buffalo Bore is a monster. Hard cast, FMJ, etc...but NO hollow point or fragmenting ammo. Penetration is most important thing (assuming you hit the beast in the proper area), followed by energy. The guy who told you a 9 was as good against varmints as a 357, and that penetration was the same...WAS ON CRACK. In recent years, there has been a resurgence in "9mm worship" (maybe because the military went with the 9 over the 45 or something), who knows. I do know that you can have 180-200 grain slugs traveling much faster because the cartridge of the 357 is significantly longer than the 9. In any case, a revolver is more reliable, and you can shoot a weak 38, average 38, 38+P, reduced 357, regular 357, hot 357...QUITE THE VARIENCE. Against the grizz, you really are looking at 44 minimum (a rifle would clearly be better), I mean, they are INSANELY powered animals.
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Post by howler on Aug 18, 2016 9:03:34 GMT
My little sister shoots a S&W 357 magnum and she stands about 4' 11" and about a 125 lbs with no trouble with the recoil. Keep in mind you can also shoot a 38 special out of it if you don't have any 357's available. This. I think a .357 mag. r evolver is a good, versatile weapon to haul around outdoors. A shotgun would be my first choice, but if size and concealment are a factor a .357 is the way to go. The .357 is really ideal...except, as you pointed out, against Grizz...then you go with that 1st choice of yours, a shotgun.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Aug 18, 2016 15:24:03 GMT
Just read a story on Yahoo News where a wilderness guide shot and killed a Grizzly charging his clients with a 9mm. Remember reading a few years back about a guy killing a black bear that was attacking his nephew, he threw a 2x4 at it. So anything can work if you're lucky enough. I believe in not just relying on luck when my life is on the line so the largest caliber with the most number of rounds. Save your luck for the lottery.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 18, 2016 18:41:59 GMT
I've lived in Alaska for quite awhile now and had a few wildlife run-ins. I have almost no faith in handguns as a legitimate bear protection. To get sufficient power against a brown bear or large black bear you have to have a very potent chambering of at least .44 Magnum level. And the recoil and size of the handgun makes drawing and aiming a real challenge. It can be done, but requires a lot of training and constant practice. Bear move really fast when they want to. And in dense undergrowth they may not be seen until they're right there in front of you. The people I know who've been mauled describe it as happening almost instantly, and the power of a brown bear is off the scale. Getting to a handgun and firing requires a lot of fine motor skills that will be the first things to go. It can be better than nothing, but it can also be worse if you end up angering the bear.
Shotguns with slugs are fine, but most people don't practice much with them. Ammo tends to get $$ quick. So on balance I'd suggest a levergun such as a Marlin in .450 or .45-70. The ammo is easy to reload for, bullets are easy to get and you can practice a ton with it. It's also stable enough to get a reasonable shot off. Though of course if you intend to use it it MUST be kept in a very easily accessible place. Slung over a big backpack probably isn't good enough. I've used belly slings and scabbards in the past. A Mosin-Nagant M38 is also a nice trail rifle.
The spray is also good but mostly used for warding off curious bears rather than stopping genuine attacks. It's a must if you're going to be working around animal bodies on a hunt, since you're not supposed to shoot inquisitive bears. It's also good for camping trips. Not every bear is for shooting. 99% of the time they're just poking around.
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Post by howler on Aug 18, 2016 20:37:43 GMT
I've lived in Alaska for quite awhile now and had a few wildlife run-ins. I have almost no faith in handguns as a legitimate bear protection. To get sufficient power against a brown bear or large black bear you have to have a very potent chambering of at least .44 Magnum level. And the recoil and size of the handgun makes drawing and aiming a real challenge. It can be done, but requires a lot of training and constant practice. Bear move really fast when they want to. And in dense undergrowth they may not be seen until they're right there in front of you. The people I know who've been mauled describe it as happening almost instantly, and the power of a brown bear is off the scale. Getting to a handgun and firing requires a lot of fine motor skills that will be the first things to go. It can be better than nothing, but it can also be worse if you end up angering the bear. Shotguns with slugs are fine, but most people don't practice much with them. Ammo tends to get $$ quick. So on balance I'd suggest a levergun such as a Marlin in .450 or .45-70. The ammo is easy to reload for, bullets are easy to get and you can practice a ton with it. It's also stable enough to get a reasonable shot off. Though of course if you intend to use it it MUST be kept in a very easily accessible place. Slung over a big backpack probably isn't good enough. I've used belly slings and scabbards in the past. A Mosin-Nagant M38 is also a nice trail rifle. The spray is also good but mostly used for warding off curious bears rather than stopping genuine attacks. It's a must if you're going to be working around animal bodies on a hunt, since you're not supposed to shoot inquisitive bears. It's also good for camping trips. Not every bear is for shooting. 99% of the time they're just poking around. A brown bear in dense woods, real close and moving fast...you better have your gun in hand and practically pointing at the beast. Rifles are superior in every way, except maybe in SUPER dense thickets where you cannot maneuver the longer barrel. The only real nice thing about a powerful handgun (say, .454 Casull, .44, etc...) is when your fishing and it rides high on a chest rig, and you have a good line of vision and distance (no dense woods). In that situation, a rifle is a rough object to sling while your manipulating rod and reel. Generally, though, handguns really are the sidearm to the main firearm, the long gun.
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Post by 1776 on Aug 19, 2016 3:59:14 GMT
Yeah, I understand that rifles beat handguns six ways to sunday. I would feel 100% more protected with a rifle or shotgun than a handgun. BUT I'm not sure I can/want to be hauling a rifle everywhere. In an area that is wild, but has a nice amount of people I'm not sure a rifle is a good idea to be hauling around everywhere. I would totally try and take it everywhere, but sometimes that just wouldn't work. You need two hands at times. Like, if I got a job as a US Park Ranger. Dealing with people lots, out in the super wild woods lots. To be honest, I'm not sure the manager would let me haul a rifle with me all the time. Might make the visitors scared. Rifle in the truck? YEP!
So the real low down on packing for grizzly is this: Carry a rifle or shotgun when you can, carry a large caliber handgun (.44mag+) the entire time. And PRACTICE with everything you are going to carry, practice all the time.
For non-grizzly packing: A hot loaded handgun, either .357 mag, 9mm or 10mm will work pretty good. But as always, carry a long gun when you can. Eh?
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Post by 1776 on Aug 19, 2016 5:41:48 GMT
Here is a good read on packing a gun for wildlife trouble. www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=108 Of course, there is never anyway to KNOW that what he is saying is true unless we try it our selves. But that doesn't seem likely on my part, so I guess I'll just have to take his word.
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Post by howler on Aug 19, 2016 6:28:57 GMT
Yeah, I understand that rifles beat handguns six ways to sunday. I would feel 100% more protected with a rifle or shotgun than a handgun. BUT I'm not sure I can/want to be hauling a rifle everywhere. In an area that is wild, but has a nice amount of people I'm not sure a rifle is a good idea to be hauling around everywhere. I would totally try and take it everywhere, but sometimes that just wouldn't work. You need two hands at times. Like, if I got a job as a US Park Ranger. Dealing with people lots, out in the super wild woods lots. To be honest, I'm not sure the manager would let me haul a rifle with me all the time. Might make the visitors scared. Rifle in the truck? YEP! So the real low down on packing for grizzly is this: Carry a rifle or shotgun when you can, carry a large caliber handgun (.44mag+) the entire time. And PRACTICE with everything you are going to carry, practice all the time. For non-grizzly packing: A hot loaded handgun, either .357 mag, 9mm or 10mm will work pretty good. But as always, carry a long gun when you can. Eh? Yup. For non griz, semiauto: (in descending order) 10MM, 45/40, Sig 357, 9mm. Revolver: 45LC and .357. When dealing with humans outside, you have to factor cars (doors, auto glass) into the equation, so bigger bullets defeat barriers better.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Aug 19, 2016 12:17:15 GMT
Yup. For non griz, semiauto: (in descending order) 10MM, 45/40, Sig 357, 9mm. Revolver: 45LC and .357. When dealing with humans outside, you have to factor cars (doors, auto glass) into the equation, so bigger bullets defeat barriers better. And not forgetting a couple of cans of good bear spray, useful for the two legged varmints too
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Post by howler on Aug 19, 2016 20:04:03 GMT
Yup. For non griz, semiauto: (in descending order) 10MM, 45/40, Sig 357, 9mm. Revolver: 45LC and .357. When dealing with humans outside, you have to factor cars (doors, auto glass) into the equation, so bigger bullets defeat barriers better. And not forgetting a couple of cans of good bear spray, useful for the two legged varmints too Yeah, I should have specified (firearms only). I left out The Judge guns (don't know much about those). A long knife and spear wouldn't hurt, but those Browns are beyond powerful. Really, if you think about it, your brains and legs (to at least try to run away) may be first on any list. Being in a group of people may help as well, as I don't know if bears like messing with large groups of people.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Aug 20, 2016 2:03:24 GMT
You've never seen me run, running is not an option. A large group of people is good, that way you can knock a couple of them down then run.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Aug 20, 2016 6:17:58 GMT
I have an LCR in 357 magnum. The recoil is unpleasant. I think that a heavier sp101 or gp100 would be fine. While .357 seems a little anemic for bears, it's better than 9mm and would do the trick for cougars or people just fine.
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Post by howler on Aug 20, 2016 6:20:30 GMT
You've never seen me run, running is not an option. A large group of people is good, that way you can knock a couple of them down then run. There are big variables with the running concept. Fitness, closeness of the bear, what protection you have on you, etc... They say stand your ground and try to look bigger with some animals (particularly the kind whose pouncing instincts are activated when you turn and run). Its a pretty bad situation if a monster brown in on top of you. Do you play dead, go for the eyes and snout (hopefully with a knife). I can think of two things to do for certain: A. Pray. B. Evacuate ones bowels and bladder.
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Post by howler on Aug 20, 2016 6:29:53 GMT
I have an LCR in 357 magnum. The recoil is unpleasant. I think that a heavier sp101 or gp100 would be fine. While .357 seems a little anemic for bears, it's better than 9mm and would do the trick for cougars or people just fine. THAT was a big reason (among many) I purchased the 3" sp101 (it is sort of a jack of all trades firearm). I'm not a huge fan of snub noses, and that extra inch of barrel is HUGE, from a ballistics standpoint, when talking .357 performance. Still, if a Griz is salivating for a bit of "Sword Connoisseur A La Red De Mike" to go with the huckleberries and salmon, you absolutely will not even notice the recoil of that LCR...and it is pretty easy to pack (for its punch).
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